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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think schools shouldn't teach religion as absolute fact?

593 replies

PoesyCherish · 06/08/2018 13:35

DSD is 6 and is learning about Christianity in school. They're teaching her Jesus is the Son of God rather than "some people believe he is". Everything about the religion is taught as fact. They've also failed to mention anything about any other religion.

AIBU to think they shouldn't be teaching it as absolute fact? How are children supposed to be understanding and tolerant of other people's beliefs if they're taught one world view as fact?

OP posts:
Pengggwn · 08/08/2018 08:51

JassyRadlett

That isn't how funding works, Jassy. Schools are funded per child on the roll. Catholic schools - or any other schools selecting on faith to educate children on premises they own outright - are not soaking up state funding. They are funded when - and only when - parents choose to send their children there.

And if you want all children to have the same number of schools available to them regardless of faith, that is a reasonable position. I don agree with it, because I think educating your child within your faith is a fundamental right, but I accept that that is your argument. In that case, the government would need to buy out the sites currently provided by the Catholic Church at their commercial value. The government doesn't own them at the moment so no, they are not "the local schools" - they are Catholic-owned.

I agree that the government is letting you down by not funding sufficient secular schools. I do not agree that the logical outcome of that is for you to automatically be able to send your children to a school that was not set up for them and not paid for by you as a taxpayer.

Anyway, I am out.

Pengggwn · 08/08/2018 08:52

CantankerousCamel

Unhinged. That's all I have to say.

JassyRadlett · 08/08/2018 08:55

We are atheist and kindly and calmly try and fight against the ‘ramming down throats’ nature of the school.

We took the ‘we don’t want to undermine the school and confuse by saying his very nice teacher is unfortunately required by her employer to lie to him’ route. Lots of ‘some people believe’, you know the stuff.

He came home earlier this year and told us God had been killed by the Big Bang.

Sadly, it is undermining his enjoyment of school. He occasionally asks to leave/change schools because he feels excluded because ‘it’s a school that believes in god.’

CantankerousCamel · 08/08/2018 09:01

Pen

Super argument. Well done.

Jassy

I tend to speak directly to the head and just make it very known that I don’t bloody want my children told about torture and horrific death in PRIMARY SCHOOL.

It, of course, doesn’t go in. They simply say that they are a CofE school and therefore quite happy to push the religious crap.

The fact that there are NO none CofE schools in catchment seems irrelevant to them or anyone else.

Pengggwn · 08/08/2018 09:06

CantankerousCamel

I'm not here to defend my beliefs. They are none of your business. I suggest you move or home educate so you don't have to expose your children - who I am sure are suffering as a result of your educational decision - to stories about torture and horrific death. How irresponsible of you.

JacquesHammer · 08/08/2018 09:09

I suggest you move or home educate

Notwithstanding the other points, that shouldn’t have to be the options for people who want a secular education.

JassyRadlett · 08/08/2018 09:12

Schools are funded per child on the roll. Catholic schools - or any other schools selecting on faith to educate children on premises they own outright - are not soaking up state funding.

School planning - the provision of schools for a local area overall, and identification of need (one of the criteria for new schools) - is carried out on the basis of all state-funded schools in an area. Faith schools are included in this. So yes, a concentration of faith schools in a particular area for historical reasons, where the local demographics no longer match the faith school provision, means there is going to be limited scope for new schools. Even where there is demonstrated local need it is incredibly difficult to open a new school.

And if you want all children to have the same number of schools available to them regardless of faith, that is a reasonable position. I don agree with it, because I think educating your child within your faith is a fundamental right, but I accept that that is your argument.

It is not a fundamental right to have the taxpayer pick up the bill for your choice to educate your child within your faith. Your faith is given a privileged position in this country, and further you have had the luck to live somewhere where there is a school that caters to your faith. Plenty of people of faith do not get this provision from the state.

People of no faith are, of course, not allowed secular schools. And it is banned to open new ones.

In many countries faith education is funded by the faith or the parents. In very few places do they expect the state to pick up the bill, or for their schools to be included in state education provision.

In that case, the government would need to buy out the sites currently provided by the Catholic Church at their commercial value.

Well, not to ditch faith-based selection. That’s a simple change in the law, and it would be up to the Church of England and the Roman Catholic Church to decide whether they wanted to remain in the state system, or whether they wanted to withdraw from the state system and educate those children at their own or parents’ expense. It would be interesting to see. Given a significant number of more rural faith schools are undersubscribed, those schools would carry on as they are now.

However if the state did decide to make a generational investment in equality (which I’d be up for, because of the social benefits), I imagine any honest organisation would reflect in the sale price the vast sums of money they have saved in 70 years’ worth of maintenance, upkeep and new building. Wink

The government doesn't own them at the moment so no, they are not "the local schools"

The government treats them as if they are, to the detriment of children not of that faith.

JassyRadlett · 08/08/2018 09:15

I suggest you move or home educate so you don't have to expose your children - who I am sure are suffering as a result of your educational decision - to stories about torture and horrific death. How irresponsible of you.

But state-funded faith schools that exclude children who live locally (and in the case of CofE schools were historically their ‘local’ school) don’t come at the expense of anyone else? Wink

Giving up my job or home educating would cost quite a bit.

Pengggwn · 08/08/2018 09:16

JassyRadlett

The fact that the government takes account of faith schools in its planning - and thereby escapes the financial burden of building schools - is not my responsibility. The government needs to provide sufficient funding for you to educate your child according to your lights. It should not be banned to open secular schools. That does not mean I am doing anything wrong by exercising my rights.

Your problem is with the government, not with me.

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 08/08/2018 09:18

It is a school founded and built by Catholics for the education of Catholic children

Historically they weren’t really. They were mainly set up because the government didn’t want the lower classes to be literate so the job of teaching children to read and write fell to the churches and some philanthropists. And often the church school is the local school because the aim was very much to widen access to education by opening a school in every parish.

It isn’t really the fault of parents now that the 19th C government decided the easiest way to provide universal education was to pay grants to pre existing church schools or that the Butler Act has been so undermined that church schools can now pay nothing towards the running of the school and still get to select which pupils they take.

The CofE is recognising the unfairness and is making steps towards removing faith based criteria. The Catholic Church, as is traditional, are resisting any change.

CantankerousCamel · 08/08/2018 09:18

For the last time, the CofE schools are NOT FAITH SCHOOLS.

They are paid for, in their entirety by the state.

They have a responsibility to educate every child, which in an increasingly secular Britain should represent the needs of all those families.

Pengggwn · 08/08/2018 09:19

JassyRadlett

Again, not my responsibility.
Catholic schools were not historically within the purview of state education. Nobody has been disadvantaged, only helped, by these schools (notwithstanding the many issues regarding discipline, abuse, etc, which are horrifying but nothing to do with this).

This situation and its history does not give people the right to demand access to faith schools irrespective of faith. These schools were built for a purpose and are fulfilling that purpose.

Speak to your MP if you feel a new school needs to be built to meet your needs.

Babdoc · 08/08/2018 09:20

It’s sad that some of the aggressive atheists on here are claiming that their non belief is fact and Christianity is fiction. Millions of Christians over two millennia have had direct encounters with the presence of God, including me. We know our faith to be a fact.
And it is not “a personal thing that should stay in the home”, or only be performed during a church service for one hour on Sundays - our faith affects every act of daily living and colours everything we do. Therefore we want our children to have the benefit of a loving relationship with God, and to be educated in accordance with that.
How exactly do atheists think their own kids will be damaged by being told to love their neighbour, to be kind, to share, to take turns, to know that Jesus loves them? “Sweet injuries” indeed, as the old hymn says!

Pengggwn · 08/08/2018 09:23

RafaIsTheKingOfClay

But nor is it the fault of the Church that the demographics of society changed. Why should they take responsibility for educating people who aren't Catholics anymore? It doesn't make sense.

You are basically saying the government was lazy and still is lazy, so the Catholic Church should now plug the gap. No.

CantankerousCamel · 08/08/2018 09:24

I think the question of whether some schools that focus on religion should be avaliable is very different to the reality that next to no secular schools are available.

Actually it makes far more sense for schools to be secular. I say secular because, of course, anyone with a brain knows that ‘atheist’ isn’t a faith Hmm

To best meet the needs of all children in the catchment, schools should offer an education suitable for the majority of those children. That is no longer a CofE or Christian school as more people stated they are ‘jedi’ than Christian on the last census.

CantankerousCamel · 08/08/2018 09:25

pen
‘The church’ don’t educate people in state schools. The government do.

Pengggwn · 08/08/2018 09:26

CantankerousCamel

I am not engaging with you any further. I find everything about your posts so far deeply offensive.

JacquesHammer · 08/08/2018 09:28

How exactly do atheists think their own kids will be damaged by being told to love their neighbour, to be kind, to share, to take turns

I’ve taught my child all of that. Those character traits aren’t a sole bastion of Christianity Hmm

JacquesHammer · 08/08/2018 09:29

Millions of Christians over two millennia have had direct encounters with the presence of God, including me. We know our faith to be a fact

Belief isn’t a fact. That’s a direct contradiction of what belief means.

CantankerousCamel · 08/08/2018 09:30

pen

Boohoo. Maybe do some research about the difference between state church schools and faith schools before going any further as you have no idea what you’re talking about.

Please can the PP explain to me why we need to use the torture and murder of a man 2000 years ago to explain modern day morality and compassion?

CantankerousCamel · 08/08/2018 09:31

Surely if Christianity was so marvellous at teaching compassion and love, we’d have modern day examples we could use to teach the kids?

Rather than ancient barbaric ones?

BananaToffo · 08/08/2018 09:40

Babdoc

Well done for highlighting the important difference between atheists and theists ... although you don't realise, in your ignorance, that's what you've done.

Theists like you, without the benefit of verifiable evidence, are of the opinion that you KNOW God exists and are justified in brainwashing teaching impressionable children this.

Atheists, however, freely acknowledge that no one knows for certain but feel it's important that children be given the freedom to MAKE UP THEIR OWN MINDS. How are they supposed to do that when people like you tell them it's all fact?

Teaching children ABOUT religion is one thing...teaching them that it's all undeniable fact is abusive.

Why, exactly, do you not want your children to have the freedom to make up their own minds? Is it because you know they'll laugh at your stories of burning bushes, talking snakes and petty gods who sacrifice themselves to themselves for no sensible reason?

And, if they have brains in the head, they will laugh. And be a bit embarrassed that Mummy still believes it all.

Oh look, Penggwyn is all "offended" about having the truth of her religion spelled out.

Have you read the bible? Cover to cover? It's a guidebook for murderers, terrorists, homophobes and misogynists. All that "love your neighbour" stuff makes up less than 1% of the content, and if you actually troubled to read the entire New Testament, not just the pretty bits the vicars points you to, you'll see that Jesus himself wasn't all that saintly.

Childrenofthesun · 08/08/2018 09:44

I don't think this is across the board. I teach in a CofE school and we present it as "Christians believe ..". We teach units on Islam and Judaism as "Muslims believe/Jewish people believe...".

I taught in a Catholic school and they were a lot more insistent about religion. We taught RE three times a week and those of us who were nom-Catholic were given a scheme of work which we were not allowed to deviate from.

Childrenofthesun · 08/08/2018 09:45

non-catholic

Pengggwn · 08/08/2018 09:46

BananaToffo

You do not know the meaning of aetheist, do you? Consider the suffix "ae" and then come back to it.