To have had enough already?

[Jenjenyeahyeah]

Sorry this is long :( We’re only a few weeks in to the holidays and I’m at the point already where I dread every single day and feel like I’m just waiting for bedtime. I have two girls, 5 and 6, and anything and everything I try to do with them just ends up a bloody nightmare. I know myself that I don’t do well without structure, so term time I find better with the set times for school, then I get on with my jobs in the house for the day then school pick up and after school clubs, homework and bath stories bed.

Without a set structure to the holidays I try to let the girls relax but also do stuff with them, go for walks, painting, paddling pool, movie afternoon with treats - and every evening after a nightmarish day I say to myself that tomorrow I will try harder and that we’ll have fun and I’ll enjoy the time with them while they’re off school. But every day, anything I try to do just ends up turning to crap real quick. Examples - yesterday got I got rolls of wallpaper out for doing big painting in the garden - within MINUTES older girl had rubbed blue paint on the dog and was then rushing toward the laundry line to rub her hands all over the fresh drying laundry. Today, it was hot so set up the paddling pool for them, they had a little paddle and a play with the bath toys I’d brought down but then older girl decides to grab handfuls of mud from the flower bed and start chucking it in the pool - then younger one starts to copy. They then stood on the side of the pool so all the water came out. Dinner time they purposely threw most of the food on the floor, and bath time they spat toothpaste at me and older child kept sticking her fingers up her nose and rubbing it all over the bathroom tiles. Board games get trashed, books get trashed, everything gets broken, nothing respected and the house trashed by the end of every day. Going out ends up a dissster as we’ll be 5 minutes into a walk and one will decide they want to go home, or shopping older girl will behave really badly (lifting her skirt, grabbing items off the shelves, shouting). I give warnings, say they will lose things (toys, tv time etc) and I follow through if they still don’t stop. Older girl especially I feel like she’s doing certain things on purpose to upset me/get a reaction (eg last week i’d just vacuumed and she proceeded to empty all the crumbs from her pack of crisps onto the floor then stamp on it...I made her clean it up once she’d calmed down enough for her to listen to me) but I just feel like by 2pm I’m counting the hours until bedtime, which I feel really sad and guilty about. But I’m just not having fun. Is this normal? What am I doing wrong? Why am I finding it so difficult to spend an entire day wit my own children at the moment. Aibu and does everyone just deal with this in the holidays and I need to stop feeling so moany?

Mine are also happier with the school routine, as am I. Even an hour off gives me time to recharge. I wouldn’t underestimate the heat as having a detrimental effect on behaviour. Mine are noticeably worse when they’re hot and bothered and if we’re honest, that’s been the whole of their holidays so far!

The girls are very close in age. It sounds like the older one’s playing up as she doesn’t get enough attention on her own or has never had a chance to have an identity of her own away from her sister. You probably need to get some alone time with her so she can have mum all to herself for a while or even just play by herself/chill out for a while. Being with her sister all day everyday who’s also pretty much the same age may get stressful or annoying sometimes.

Can you not arrange a playdate/sleepover for the younger one so you an the older one can hang out with you/alone?

I don't think all your children's behaviour is awful. I'm sure there are times when it's perfectly ok, but it's just you've got in a cycle and it's hard to break out of telling them off, and the more you tell them off the worse they seem to get, and of course taking toys away makes them resentful etc.

So I'd start afresh tomorrow.

I would pick on ANY good thing even as simple as getting up and getting dressed, or even putting an item of clothing on when getting up. Sitting nicely at the table. Or eating a few mouthfuls of breakfast without making a mess. And praise praise praise anything and everything either of them do that you find 'good' or 'desirable' behaviour, no matter how small. Be over the top with giving praise no matter how small the positive behaviour is, if it is how you want them to behave then it gets praised.

Anything not so good (like throwing food on the floor, kicking the gravel or picking the petals) I'd not comment, not make eye contact just ignore or clear it away (unless dangerous! In which case told no and why and removed from the danger/danger removed from them, then subject changed) and look for the next 'good' behaviour to praise - you might have to really look for it eg not slurping juice but drinking it nicely. Just keep looking for good' things eg playing nicely together (even if just for 3 minutes) and after a culmination of several 'good' behaviours and minimal or hopefully zero 'bad' you could say how pleased you are and suggest a fun activity to do. Your kids will soon cotton on that the only way to get your attention and praise they do the 'good' stuff that you want them to do - and keeping it up gets a treat like going to the park or museum. Playing up, chucking food around etc gets them no attention - so they do this less and learn that by behaving (how you want them to) they get your 100% attention and praise - and often a nice fun thing to do too.

I don't think taking stuff away for bad behaviour works. However rewarding for good does work, IMO. You don't train a dog by asking the dog to do something and taking treats away if they don't do it, but by training them that when they do what you ask they then get a treat and you say well done. In time you drop the treat and just say well done. If they don't do it you just try again. So I'm thinking why shouldn't you train children in the same reward based way?

I think you are quite right when you say that naught behaviour often tends to come from boredom or wanting attention. So make it known that only the good desirable behaviour gets your praise and attention, and anything else gets ignored (unless dangerous), and I'll bet you that you'll turn your kids behaviour round in a day or two. You can recap any extra special 'good' behaviours you wish to encourage repeats of at bedtime eg 'I was so proud of you and younger daughter today for playing together with the skittles so nicely this afternoon' Your daughter could even find she earns back her toys and video by being extra good.

I think I would look into your daughter’s behaviour a little deeper to find the cause.

As a comparison, my two year old doesn’t behave this badly. She cleans up her own mess if she spills something, says please and thank you and knows when to apologise.

Your 6 year old sounds like a very young toddler; it’s not normal behaviour for her age at all and needs fixing before the younger one copies her.

Boredom shouldn’t cause such extreme behaviour on its own.

For what it’s worth, my friend’s child was referred to CAMHS for similar behaviour.

Not normal behaviour at all. Screw their fun this needs addressing.

I feel your pain, my two are similar ages and my DDs behaviour can be similar to your eldest. My DC are adopted and have a very real need to have me close by and my DDs behaviour is her attempt to keep me near by doing things I need to pay attention to.

Things that help? I try to praise where I can. I don’t make things up or praise for the sake of it but I do watch for things I’m pleased with in both kids and praise accordingly. I pick my battles so, for example, the paddling pool wouldn’t have bothered me in terms of grass and mud but I would have stopped them emptying the pool because it’s wasting water if they want it filled again. I also try to find natural consequences where at all possible so with the crisps, I’d have had her help me clean up the mess and maybe not then have had time to do something she wanted to. With the dog, she would have helped me clean up the dog and wouldn’t be allowed to play with the paints again that day - I’d have her bring a non-messy activity (maybe a jigsaw) while my DS continued with painting.

I’m also a fan of both kids spending time in their own rooms - sometimes they need space away from each other and if I know they aren’t together I’ve got 5 mins to put a washing on or get a cup of tea.

On that note, do you get Timea for yourself? The deal in our house is that when DH comes home from work he takes the kids for even half an hour so I can have some peace and quiet. You need your own headspace if you’re going to cope.

It's not like she's self harming or smearing shit up the walls

If you’re happy setting a benchmark like that for your children’s behaviour, then fair enough.

Most of us would regard a 6 year old emptying crisps and then purposefully grinding them in to the carpet after their mother had vacuumed is very naughty and concerning behaviour

Anything not so good (like throwing food on the floor, kicking the gravel or picking the petals) I'd not comment, not make eye contact just ignore or clear it away

Sounds like a scene from an disturbing film on slavery!

No, don’t ignore / tidy up without making eye contact. That will achieve bugger all other than your home resembling a dump and you on the brink of a nervous breakdown.

It will be hard because it would seem they’ve not had boundaries and discipline. But given hue young they are, there is still hope this can be turned around.

I would get professional support. It will cost, but I think you and they need it.

Hi OP. Sorry you are struggling and sorry about all the comments about your daughter's behaviour. It did sound pretty bad to me but in your other post you said that she was polite and well behaved at school and for dad. Have you tried to be objective about the type of reinforcement that you give her? What I mean is - does she only get a reaction when she does something bad?

When they were painting outside, for example, did you tell her how well she was doing and encourage her or set things up and leave her to it and then only engage when she was charging towards he washing line?

If she seems to get a pleasure from being naughty then surely this is just about attention?

I do sympathise. My eldest boy is missing the institutional structure of school and needs me to run my own personal center parcs for him otherwise he's moping about or bickering with siblings.

I've got a 5 year old and he can sometimes do silly things but is pretty well behaved but I could see how with 2 similar ages they can egg each other on to get sillier and sillier. My advice would be get a routine going it obviously works better for your family I would go out every day. Ask them to do a list of things they would like to do and try to work from that. Do you have any school friends or family friends you could arrange to meet up with ? Plan trips to the park and take a picnic , travel to different parks , go to local country park / forest areas you can download stuff from nature detectives bug hunts , nature art , making fairy houses ECT, the big butterfly count is on now , look in your local area for any free / low cost things to do, The libaries do stuff every week craft sessions ect plus the summer reading challenge, lots of free museums have activities on over the holidays. Check out the cinemas child screenings , if she likes art look at art galleries ECT to see if they have any children's work shops on, where we are there is something called Tyneside rocks it's basically decorating and hiding rocks for people to find, you could see if anything similar near you, geocaching I would just aim to have a plan for every day and keep them updated on what is happening each day. One of my little boys favourite things to do in the garden is making potions with mud , water , stones ECT I did it as a child I think this is pretty normal but obviously if she is going to smear this all over your washing this isn't going to work. I think you need to be a bit more specific so if she puts slime on sofa it's taken off her and I would explain th at this won't be coming out again as she's unable to play with it nicely then take it away . If she does the same with paint, play dough ECT Then I'd do the same. For in the house we sometimes make treasure maps then hide treasure then have to take it in turns finding it, baking is good fun even if you only get the packet mix to cut down on mess. I would just aim to be out of the house for a bigger portion of the day doing something then when you get in if they watch a big of tv while you make tea then you've only got a shorter amount of time to entertain in the house.

Caribbean there is a lot of clear blue water between the kind of behaviour of find acceptable and the kind of behaviour that would see me calling CAMHS. I might try a spot of parenting first, see if that could sort things out, what do you think? [Hmm] people are such drama queens on here sometimes.

I agree with what everyone else has said, the behaviour is extreme, well beyond the bounds of normal, and this is what needs addressing. Concentrate on discipline rather than fun

I think your DH needs to get a reality check that his parenting is part of the problem!!!! You need a united front to tackle this rather than him undermining you constant.

Wow! That sounds like incredibly extreme behaviour from your children. In fact I’d go so far as to say they sound like spoilt brats.
My baby (9 months) knows now he is told off if he drops his cup on the floor. He doesn’t do it any longer.
My 4 year old boy knows he must tidy and put things away and try to help mummy as much as possible. 9/10 he will entertain himself and watch his brother.
It sounds like you need to focus on your daughters’ behaviours rather than them having fun.
Start off by listing your expectations. “We are going to colour nicely. You will not draw on anything other than the paper and if you do, you will be sent straight to bed”
Then when the inevitable happens follow through. “I told you if you drew anywhere not the paper you would be sent to bed. This is your own fault.” Take to bed and make them stay there.
I’m my experience my son usually acts naughty when he’s tired. So the bedtime thing not only helps serve as a “punishment” it also helps to calm him down after a sleep.

CAMHS isn't just for mental health issues such as depression and self harming, it covers things like Autism and ADHD to. The best thing is to chat to your GP OP.

There's so many righteous bitches on this thread, sorry @Jenjenyeahyeah really not what you need after a crappy time that's left you feeling broken.

Amongst the insults there is some good advice here that might help your situation. Yes her behavior is a bit extreme & needs dealing with but it doesn't make you a bad Mum. Whichever discipline method you're using so try something else. Parenting is the hardest thing ever.

If you haven't got unbreakable plans for today, leave the girls with your OH and take the time to relax, regroup and tomorrow is a new day x

I'm following as I'm in the same situation with my two and really feel for you

l praise like crazy but they still push every boundary and rule. I'm very envious of those who say their children wouldn't exhibit these behaviours, I really do try very hard to manage their behaviour. I feel I'm letting them down.

I've found empathising with their frustrations and feelings helps a bit e.g. "oh I know you would like those sweets at the till / to play with the other child's toy. I'd like to as well, it's frustrating isn't it" it sometimes dissipates things.

Overall I feel I'm constantly talking with the praising, telling off, distracting. They're always awake by 6.30 so I'm knackered by 10am and sick of the sound of my own voice!

I should add I visited the GP re my daughter's poor behaviour and she was seen by a child development unit over several months and diagnosed with high functioning autism (aspergers if they were still able to diagnose under that label). This was a surprise as she's so 'normal' and people delight in telling me she doesn't have it

It's really tough and it seems no one is understanding that despite my very best efforts I'm not getting the same results as them. My children are actually very sweet and kind but once they get into the downward spiral of bad behaviour they are hard to cajole/discipline put of it. I wished they cared about losing toys, activities etc but they don't so I'm going to stop with that tactic and try more rewards. Argos currently has Lego minifigures for 99p so I'm going to buy a load and start star charts again so they can win a figure. 'Winning' a trip to the park, library etc doesn't work as I have to leave the house amd walk there and that's another trigger for awful behaviour and not listening

Ennirem

I didn’t mean CAMS. You jumped straight to that! I said it might be expensive so clearly did NOT mean that.

I meant a parenting course, counselling etc

I might try a spot of parenting first, see if that could sort things out, what do you think?

If we were talked about an 18 month old, yes.

This is young school aged child. Suddenly “parenting” is going to be tough I was suggesting that external support may be the beneficial.

This thread is split between those that think the behaviour is very concerning and those that think it’s normal childish behaviour.

As far as I can tell, no one has been a “righteous bitch”. But no surprise which side that poster falls on.

This does sound difficult. Do you think they're maybe competing for attention since their ages are close together? Maybe they've got into a habit of getting negative rather than positive attention. These things take a long time to change so it will be hard work. It's probably already been mentioned but specific alone time with each girl (properly ear marked out of the house if possible). Giving them more choices might help (e.g. list of 5 activities to choose from).

Sorry you're struggling at the moment. Holiday clubs are great but can be costly, take turns to have a friend over & hope it's reciprocated.

Mine were all a bit tired & teasy last week so i got a pad of paper out & got them to think of things to do:

Outside - beach, woods, park

Paying days - trampoline park, soft play, cinema, shopping trip (poundshop or charity shop), swimming.

Then used the calendar to write (in pencil) what activity to do on what day.

Each week must have 2 outdoor activites & only 1 paying day.

We're also making a cake once a week to share.

It gave them a bit of structure & a say in how we spend our time. We'll maybe adapt it over the course of the summer holiday but they had to compromise with each which is a good lesson!

Also each dc has a sheet on the fridge & when they do something they're supposed to without asking or without arguement they get a mark. Each mark worth 10p. Money counted up & given last weekend of holidays & taken somewhere to spend it.

They've each got a different times table to learn so if they write it out they get a mark. Same as practising their instruments etc.

Yes LagunaBubbles but nothing the OP has said indicates either condition. She describes a largely well-behaved, intelligent and helpful child who is doing well at school and behaves well for her father, who is being rather naughty for her mother in an attention seeking way. There are diagnosed cases of autism (boy and girl) in my immediate family, I have read on it widely, and there is no reason whatsoever to suppose this child is autistic, so why on earth would the OP refer her to CAMHS before even trying some alternative discipline strategies?? It's a complete overreaction. There are children exhibiting far worse behaviour who have no need whatsoever of mental health services, just some boundaries and attention. Strewth.

Carribbean someone up thread did recommend CAMHS. It's that I disagree with, and people being incredibly harsh and cruel about the OP's children ("ghastly", "little shits" etc - so inappropriate to total about a child that way!)

DownsNdirty - that’s just pretty much exactly how I feel. I don’t think I’m a bad parent, I do give boundaries and the tactics that work on most children I feel just don’t work for me on my oldest girl - I’m doing the same stuff but not getting the same results. I AM parenting - I AM trying - but it feels no matter approach I take the bad behaviour prevails. I don’t think I’m a pushover - I don’t tolerate bad behaviour, I do addesss it, I’m not a lazy parent, but I feel like I’m trying to reason with a brick wall sometimes and no matter what I say, threaten or do, once she’s worked herself up into one of these naughty episodes it’s like I can’t get through to her. It’s easy to say ‘I wouldn’t let my kid get away with that’ - I’m not ‘letting her get away with it’ but I feel that short of locking her in her room all day or smacking - neither of which I want to do or think is right - I’ve tried to stop the behaviour.
My husband thinks I’m exaggerating and that it’s just normal kid behaviour - I talked to him last night and said that most people don’t consider a 6 year old spitting at her mother normal but he just shrugs it off.
There’s been lots of good ideas on here so thanks for everyones suggestions of good constructive things to try.
We’re off swimming this morning, and I’ll see how the day goes. I’ve had a chat with her this morning and said how I expect her to behave today and that it makes me said when she does things that I have told her not to do. It’s difficult stopping activities if she’s naughty or if the little one is naughty because it means the other one that hasn’t been naughty hen misses out. My husband is away for a lot of the time, I have no family around and we are in a relatively new area so no real friends around here (everyone is in south London and we in the midlands now) so there isn’t much opportunity for spending time alone with each of them or indeed for me to have a day off and recharge. I have set up some play dates with kids from school throughout the holidays, but the weeks just seem really long and never ending.

@Caribbeanyesplease 'Your children sound ghastly' and 'spoilt brats' claiming that their 9 month old has better behavior. Yes righteous and not the support that the OP needed.