To believe that formula companies have PR agents working the BF/FF threads on here?

[CocoDeMoll]

They are a multi million pound set of companies that are invested in keeping Britain’s low breastfeeding rates down and keeping their profit margins up.

Any positives about breastfeeding seem to be shot down in flames on here.

So much pro formula and anti breastfeeding rhetoric.

They can easily afford to and have the best at the jobs be it lawyers, pr teams or spin doctors on their sides and they’re not exactly renounced for their ethics are they (nestle?!?!).

Or am I just getting a bit tied up in conspiracy therorys?

RoadToRivendell

I know that. But what I mean, to be more specific, is that I don't think anybody should be taking it upon themselves to tell me what I should be doing, or what would better in their judgement. It is nothing to do with anyone else.

RoadToRivendell

It may well be better for the environment (vegetarianism or breastfeeding). I don't believe that gives you the right to tell other women to do it. I think it is interfering, censorious and judgemental, and I have no interest in hearing it.

pengwwwyn

Agree totally. we should do everything we can to breastfeed

No professionals should respect women’s personal choices be that breast or bottle.most women have already decided how they want to feed their babies before the birth and it’s their job to facilitate this choice.

They should keep their judgments to themselves and as for society in general. Other mums or any other people mind your own business.

Well, it would be unthinkably rude for someone to tell you IRL how they feel about FF. It's unlikely to happen. You must have some curiosity about it, though, or you'd avoid this thread entirely.

Personally, as a meat-eater, I am more than happy for vegetarians to judge me, because I make no pretense of not judging others. It's a normal human impulse.

I as a mother have the right - pure and simple - to say I don't want to breastfeed and not to explain why to anyone"
Of course you do. But what about the many women who wanted to bf but, often because of crap advice, thought that they couldn't? Do we just throw them under a bus?

RoadToRivendell

Well at least you're honest, unlike some.

This thread was meant to be about PR for formula companies, though, Road. It's actually hilarious that there are people talking about me derailing it, because what they want to do is slag off women who choose not to breastfeed.

One person on a thread saying that (if they are) does not equate to a public health decision!

Breastfeeding is shown through many studies to beneficial to most, mothers and babies.

A new mother is going to ask her HCP about feeding her baby. She should be told the correct answer. That is, breastfeeding is the most beneficial way to feed your baby for most (not all) mothers and babies. Support should be offered if she then decides to breastfeed.

This is what happens now expect that the support has been withdrawn or reduced due to cuts.

BertrandRussell

No, we give them the correct information.

thereareflowersinmygarden

No, flowers. Breastfeeding has been shown to have some marginal health benefits. It has not been shown to be beneficial to most mothers and babies overall. I would have no problem with "marginal health benefits" being used by HCPs. I have a huge problem with language like "best" or "should".

The correct information is that breastfeeding is the best way to feed most (not all) babies.

Mothers also need to be told how it works, so they don't think they have no milk on day two, get a bottle out and then spend months feeling that they have failed somehow and getting PND

We clearly have a difficult idea of what marginal means, that's all I can say.

“No, we give them the correct information.”
And get shouted at. And told we are judging and pressurizing.

It's funny how when people say how much they enjoy bf, it's because bf is awesome, but when someone says howuch they like ff, they must be employees of nestle...

Honestly, you'd struggle to find someone who loves ff more than me. And I have nothing to do with the formula companies, I just really enjoy formula feeding. It shouldn't be any harder to believe than someone enjoying breastfeeding.

I enjoy thst I share feeds, that I share nights. I enjoy that sharing the labour means I am more rested, and my husband knows our child's routines as much as me, sometimes more. I love that it's never caused me pain. That I've never been anxious about whether there is enough milk. I love that my child is thriving. I love that I don't have to make wardrobe choices based on accessibility of boobs. I love that when I've been ill (not anything serious, just the usual bugs), I can hand all parenting duties over for a couple of days, and recover. I love that my child can fully look into my eyes when feeding. I love that I've never dreaded my child waking for a feed, because sharing it, means feeding our baby feels like a privilege to enjoy, rather than a duty or burden.

There are many advantages to breastfeeding also. It's a personal choice, but people wouldn't do either if they didn't think there were advantages of them.

I wish we lived in a country where all feeding choices were respected, rather than one where women are pushed into breastfeeding, regardless of their preference. That way women that truly want to breastfeed can get the support they need, and those that don't want to, can guilt free formula feed.

The correct information is that breastfeeding is the best way to feed most (not all) babies.

No, it ISN'T. It has been shown to have marginal health benefits. That does not make it 'best' - that is an emotive word.

BertrandRussell

That isn't why.

“Mothers also need to be told how it works, so they don't think they have no milk on day two, get a bottle out and then spend months feeling that they have failed somehow and getting PND”

Yes, this.

It also needs to be OK to say “I didn’t want to”. (It is in my world- I have never met these hordes of smug tutting breastfeeders that seem to inhabit everyone else’ s world). No reason needs to be given.

Best is a value judgement. Best is what mothers ask for. Of course it is emotive. Mothers want to know the best way to feed their baby, so we should tell them.

Marginal, is emotive and dismissive.

It's funny how when people say how much they enjoy bf, it's because bf is awesome, but when someone says howuch they like ff, they must be employees of nestle...

There's very little commercial gain to be had for BFing. You have ancillary support products e.g. a breast boppy or the aloe vera cream, but that's about it.

Whereas formula is obviously a huge industry, which has partaken of unethical activity in the past (and perhaps present).

I don't believe that formula companies have moles, by the way.

thereareflowersinmygarden

'Marginal' is a completely neutral word - it is a start in quantifying the benefit.

Where on earth do you get your data backing up your confident assertion that 'Mothers want to know the best way to feed their baby'?

Marginal is not neutral. Very few adjectives are neutral.

And of course women want to know the best way to feed their babies. Not arguing that point.

thereareflowersinmygarden

'Not arguing that point' - oh right. I mean, let's forget the millions of women who are told by the NHS that breastfeeding is the 'best' way to feed their baby every year, but actually decide that the 'best' way to feed their baby is formula, because they don't matter, do they? All we need to do is tell women what to do, and they will do it.

Except they won't, will they? Because the model of decision-making based on statistical analysis of health benefit does not work. It ignores many of the real factors in mothers' decision-making, focusing on a narrow set of parameters that suit the pro-breastfeeding argument.

@Sleeplikeasloth that's a nice post. Not sure what age your baby is but FF really came into its own for me around 6-8 months when my baby started sleeping through the night and when he went to nursery and wasn't distraught at being separated from the breast/we didn't have to go through trying him with a bottle and him refusing etc.

The sleeping thing is dismissed quite frequently because young FF babies do wake up as frequently as BF babies. You only see the difference when they are older. From my friends experience, BF babies continue to wake frequently at night even after a year until they are weaned, force of habit maybe, I'm not sure why.

I still would have liked to BF for the health benefits but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy the benefits that FF brings too. Nothing brings as much relief to a struggling Mum in the first few weeks of trying to get BF established and failing than seeing their child milk drunk after a full bottle of milk.

Oh FGS - no - forget this "Best".

Women need to be given fact based information. Something being "Best" is NOT fact, it is OPINION.

We can say - factually - that BF has health benefits X, Y and Z in comparison to formula. That BF eliminates contamination and rehydration errors, which are problems which can exist in the context of formula. That BF costs the NHS less money, etc. There are clear, one track lines of enquiry where breastmilk is objectively "best" - this DOES NOT mean that it is "best" overall. That is for individuals to decide.

By giving women factual information, we mean information about how milk supply works, about how to achieve a good latch, about which problems/how much pain is normal, and how much means you should seek help. Information about how to increase supply, or improve a painful latch, or solve any other problem which might come up. Information about the mechanisms by which interventions such as expressing or dummy use or bottle feeds or strict routines can interfere with supply and demand (because it's not black and white, and there are good reasons to do these things which must be weighed up against the risk), about normal sleeping patterns, and any number of other facts relating to breastmilk, yes, including the health benefits.

But then we must step back and allow a woman to make her own choice. It is not up to anybody else to decide that health benefits are the only part which should factor into "best". The best choice is the one which works for the mother and the baby.

Nobody is suggesting that the choice of how to feed should be taken away from women.

However, if a woman asks about it, short of actually lying, giving her factual information is going to result in telling her that breastfeeding is generally better. There are of course going to be exceptions.

Btw, i know plenty of FF fed babies that are crap sleepers. Anecdotal evidence is not really relevant here

Except they won't, will they? Because the model of decision-making based on statistical analysis of health benefit does not work. It ignores many of the real factors in mothers' decision-making, focusing on a narrow set of parameters that suit the pro-breastfeeding argument.

Why would a statistical analysis of the population-level heath disparities between FF and BF baby include non-health related factors? That's a complete perversion of the role of medical research.

Such studies are to be balanced against whatever real-life factors you deem suitable.

To incorporate any sort of 'it helps parents to transition babies into nursery more effectively' kind of factors, to borrow an example from above, at once infantalises and makes completely unsound assumptions about the public.