To believe that formula companies have PR agents working the BF/FF threads on here?

[CocoDeMoll]

They are a multi million pound set of companies that are invested in keeping Britain’s low breastfeeding rates down and keeping their profit margins up.

Any positives about breastfeeding seem to be shot down in flames on here.

So much pro formula and anti breastfeeding rhetoric.

They can easily afford to and have the best at the jobs be it lawyers, pr teams or spin doctors on their sides and they’re not exactly renounced for their ethics are they (nestle?!?!).

Or am I just getting a bit tied up in conspiracy therorys?

It always amazes me that anyone gives a flying fuck how any other mum feeds her baby."

I don't give a flying fuck so long as women are able to make a perfectly free choice that makes them happy. But there are a lot of women who can't do that.

In short, formula is a highly nutritious food which is tailored for human needs. We should probably all drink it!

Do you work for cow & gate??

I just had one more thought on this @CocoDeMoll.

These sort of discussions on formula feeding inevitably get filled up with people who just seem to enjoy an argument, have no interest in the actual discussion, and attempt to derail it as much as possible. I've always just assumed they have unhappy lives (!) but isn't it possible this is a formula company tactic?? To stop normal people discussing issues they don't want mentioned, and deter people from commenting who don't want to get into an argument...

Yep. Breastfeeding is best, recent research does highlight higher IQ with breastfed babies; research was done across all socio-economic groups in Brazil, so well-being wasn't measured on class and wealth etc:

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/mar/18/brazil-longer-babies-breastfed-more-achieve-in-life-major-study

And benefits are not just for baby, breastfeeding reduces risk of breast cancer by 50% for mothers:

https://news.yale.edu/2001/01/25/breast-cancer-risk-reduced-50-percent-breastfeeding-two-or-more-years

Breast milk is best as the food is tailored to the baby, providing life-long bacteria for the gut, antibodies and other essential nutrients beyond simple fats and proteins (found in processed cows formula milk).

Lots of studies overwhelmingly highlight the benefits of breast milk over formula. Sorry, that's just the science. And, breastfeeding is also socially and culturally beneficial. It lowers risk of developing postnatal depression, or developing severe depression. Less diabetes and better diet choices when children are breast fed, which benefits society long term.

I am a mother and researcher (but not in this area) but totally support breastfeeding based on the evidence. I have two children and only breastfeed one, one had a bad tongue tie, so I know how hard it is but I still think we should make absolutely every effort to do it! And, I found it such a wonderful experience

but I still think we should make absolutely every effort to do it!

And I think we should make absolutely no comment on other people's feeding choices.

Also, sadly support for BF is so low in this country; for the DS I didn't breastfeed for very long, I was hugely under supported 😔

And I think we should make absolutely no comment on other people's feeding choices.

Ah the old 'argue with one tiny sentence' and ignore the science bit of the argument... welcome to Mumsnet 

Anyway, ignoring advice would completely ignore the science and benefits, and don't we live in a society where we give advice to others? We're not all completely isolated individuals, we live in a shared culture where our resources are connected and other's choices materially affect me, the health of my culture affects how much money is available for the health care, or the general well being of people around me etc. Which is based on informed choices, on research and science etc..

And, I never said we should definitely do it but we should try to make the effort etc, because it is best.

Sheesh, people really don't like taking advice based on science in this country... No one is forcing anyone to do it...

And yes breastfeeding support is under sourced, so that would help too.

In short, formula is a highly nutritious food which is tailored for human needs. We should probably all drink it!

Well, seeing as it's basically dried cow's milk with a vitamin-mineral mix added added I'm not so sure. Breastmilk, however, IS specifically tailored for human needs. Should we all be drinking that?

I feel there is a very anti-medical advice/science based advice ilk on Mumsnet. I would always give people advice based on science/research, for example, I would tell them smoking is bad for them but I wouldn't necessarily grab their cigarettes out of their hand... Evidence based advice is important and it does say breastfeeding is best as per the research I posted above, and making an effort to do it is a great idea. Whilst I understand some can't (like me).

Anyway, I'm off to enjoy the rest of my weekend now, hope everyone has a lovely day

We can all promote our own views on here. I want many more women to breastfeed for all kinds of reasons and it's sad it's become almost a thing, a fashion to criticise mothers who breastfeed and be very pro formula feeding. My mother had similar issues when she was breastfeeding me in the 1960s, so much pressure she gave up and wished she hadn't and was pleased I breastfed as her own mother had done.

Xenia

Nobody had criticised women who breastfeed. YOU are criticising women who don't.

DayslikeThese123

Telling other people what they should do isn't 'a tiny bit of a sentence'. It is the crux of what you are saying: I think this is good, so you should do it.

Like, I think vegetarianism is better for children so I think you should stop feeding yours meat and I am going to go on about it and call it "the science", even though it's actually my opinion shoved down your unwilling throat.

Pengggwn—as an aside, shouldn’t we encourage vegetarianism? It’s more ethical, generally healthier, better for the environment, etc?

Doesn’t mean I’d judge my friends who eat meat, but I would hope that society promotes it or the idea that some meals a week could be meat-free?

Shouldn’t we encourage positive things when it comes to ethics/health/environmental actions?

PineapplePower

No, you should leave other people to live according to their own opinions on what is ethical and healthier. Not everyone agrees with you about vegetarianism, so speaking about it as something about which we have reached consensus, something which should be encouraged wholesale, is arrogant.

PineapplePower

And of course, it is fair to point out the contextual differences between promoting vegetarianism to omnivores and promoting breastfeeding to mothers who plan to formula or combination feed: mothers are people who have very often been through a lot to bring their children into the world, who are already anxious about whether they are doing a 'good enough' job, who are worried about childcare decisions and work and housework and a million other things. They are vulnerable already, and the last thing they need is for people to "promote" things of marginal benefit to them, and that includes BF.

I feel there is a very anti-medical advice/science based advice ilk on Mumsnet.

I don’t agree with this at all. MN has some very scientifically literate posters who are quick to point out when posters stray into anecdote or contradict well established science.

The research around BF is far from established and conclusive in many areas. People are pesky subjects for research, they vary and confound so much that what might seem like strong evidence from research can come tumbling down with deeper thought. For example, the Brazilian study referred to by @DayslikeThese123, even the researcher acknowledged that the mothers who continue to BF to 12 months may be doing something else that contributes to IQ. If you consider which mothers have the time available to BF to 12 months (probably not at work, potentially not many other siblings to care for) then you begin to see that this is far from conclusive evidence. Birth order has an impact on IQ - possibly mediated by adult attention with younger siblings having less adult interaction. Perhaps this BF research is actually showing a similar story.

By all means present the evidence available, but there is very little that should be presented as ‘proven by science’.

Breastfeeding and vegetarianism are not really comparable.

There are proven benefits to breastfeeding (yes I know there is a recent study doubting the IQ one), vegetarianism is a lifestyle choice and can be just as unhealthy and damaging to the planet as being an omnivore.

thereareflowersinmygarden

There are also certain proven benefits to vegetarianism. That doesn't mean it is better overall for every individual, and exactly the same is true of breastfeeding. Whether or not my child might end up slightly less likely to get gastroenteritis, if I feel I am slightly more likely to end up hurting myself or even the baby because I am more likely to get PND as a result of exhaustion, that is - at least to me - a significant drawback of breastfeeding.

Nobody else is entitled to make that judgement for me.

And I say that as someone who did breastfeed and didn't get PND.

Such as?

A vegetarian diet is simply the absence of meat. It could be entirely beans on toast or chips and mayonnaise. Not healthy.

One of the benefits of breastfeeding is a lower risk of PND actually. The group with the highest risk of it are those who initially want to breastfeed and then don't or stop for whatever reason.

The answer is more breastfeeding support.

thereareflowersinmygarden

But I might not feel that I have a lower risk of PND if I breastfeed. I might be quite confident that I need the support of my partner with feeding so I can - just an example - continue with a hobby, or go back to work. Statistics can only tell you so much.

And with regards to vegetarianism, statistically, and at a population level, a vegetarian diet has some benefits like lowering cholesterol levels. I am not saying it does that for everyone. My point is the opposite: it has some statistically proven benefits, but whether or not it is a good idea for the individual depends on a host of factors. As a result, we should be careful about generalising and not try to tell other people what they should do based on points on a graph.

But nobody is talking about telling individuals to breastfeed.

We're talking about what to encourage on a population level. These are literally and figuratively, public health decisions

More breast feeding suppport if asked for fine.

More piling on the guilt and judging other women’s choices not fine.

I dislike the ‘oh we should be encouraging more women to bf’ or ‘our bf rates are the lowest in Europe?’ So what? Perhaps some of those BF women in Europe hate it. Maybe they had wanted to FF.

Everyone should be feee to make their own choices and really feeding is such an infitesimal part of parenting yet garners so much attention.

If you look at a reception clsss no one could pick out who was BF and who FF.

thereareflowersinmygarden

Of course they are. Read the thread. Look at DaysLikeThese's comment: she says we should do everything we can to breastfeed. That is a comment addressed at me as a mother. I as a mother have the right - pure and simple - to say I don't want to breastfeed and not to explain why to anyone. The statistics don't trump my own judgement.

And with regards to vegetarianism, statistically, and at a population level, a vegetarian diet has some benefits like lowering cholesterol levels.

How else could anyone discuss anything meaningfully, except at a population level?

And you've (perhaps inadvertently) drawn an excellent double-parallel. Vegetarianism is better for you than a meat-based diet, depending on a wide range of factors - but it is enormously better for the environment - just like breastfeeding.

I as a mother have the right - pure and simple - to say I don't want to breastfeed and not to explain why to anyone.

Of course you do. FF rights are in no way in jeopardy.