To believe that formula companies have PR agents working the BF/FF threads on here?

[CocoDeMoll]

They are a multi million pound set of companies that are invested in keeping Britain’s low breastfeeding rates down and keeping their profit margins up.

Any positives about breastfeeding seem to be shot down in flames on here.

So much pro formula and anti breastfeeding rhetoric.

They can easily afford to and have the best at the jobs be it lawyers, pr teams or spin doctors on their sides and they’re not exactly renounced for their ethics are they (nestle?!?!).

Or am I just getting a bit tied up in conspiracy therorys?

And the evidence for breastfeeding is shaky at best

Shaky? What, like the fact that breastfeeding has literally made the human race survive for millions of years?

YANBU OP

There’s also a very good Viakal company marketer who comes on to the housekeeping boards every few months and ‘innocently’ asks people how she can keep her shower screen clean... they often get pulled by mn hq

I’ve been on MN a long time & my Dd is way past bf/ff. I am gobsmacked that anyone can think this place is anti bf. I have seen countless nasty snide comments about ff over the years, I have seen advice given to new mums that they should ignore doctors advice and bf despite being in medication that may not be appropriate, I have also seen countless women be made to justify their choices & be berated for them if they couldn’t/ wouldn’t bf.

Nancy where are these comments you talk about? I just don’t see them. I do see lots of people jump on anyone who mentions the benefits of bf. any positive threads about bf are pulled tight away in case they make Ff mums feel bad etc

Redteapot like I said, I’ve been on here a long time and these are the kind of things I’ve read over the years, at the moment it seems friendlier to ff mums but not anywhere near the anti bf feeling the op claims

Any thread that mentions any benefits of breastfeeding are inevitably filled with posts denying any benefits at all. The dominant opinion here is that all the research is flawed, it only applies in developing countries and any benefits are so insignificant as to be totally irrelevant anyway. The accepted viewpoint is that there is no real difference at all between formula and breastfeeding, and the NHS/WHO etc are in the thrall of dodgy researchers and inexplicably want to promote breastfeeding as a result.

I'm pro choice i.e. Women should be free to choose how to feed their babies without the fear of being judged whether that's breast or formula.

I chose to FF my DD and I'm glad I did.

YABU OP, the truth is that formula companies don't need to do anything like that, because people want to buy formula and it's not because they are being "tricked". It's because for most people breastfeeding is really bloody hard and painful. Cracked bleeding nipples, painful let down, thrush, baby not latching, no sleep as no one can help you feed baby. Unless you think those things are made up by nestle?

I'm not against bf, of course, I think women should get all the support they need to continue as long as they want. But if that one day or zero days that's fine with me too.

But to be honest I dont think women should be pressured in to continuing something that is so painful. It's a bit like during birth. There's much talk that you should do it "the lovely natural way" with no pain relief, but actually labour is bloody painful and I don't see why women should suffer when they don't have too.

Hey, maybe it's pharmaceutical companies on here saying labour is painful, to sell more epidurals! And physios drumming up business by saying you should see one if you have a damaged pelvic floor! Maybe
it's divorce lawyers on here who are always saying to LTB!

And yes I'm sure you ll say I'm one of those marketing trolls, well AS me, I've been here for ages never commenting on this topic.

I don't think there is a conspiracy.
I’m prochoice, but this site is definitely not anti bf.
I do agree there are a few pro bf posters that are determined to be right.
I think there needs to be more support for bf mothers as there isn’t enough, but formula is not poison.
If a mother choses not to bf she is not selfish and shouldn't be made to feel that way.

Omg! Sometimes the posters here who advise getting married instead of just being defaco if you are in a vulnerable financial situation. But maybe they are just shrill for wedding dress companies! This goes all the way to the top!

Or are they just people, sharing their experiences. You tell me.

Breastfeeding is not "bloody hard and painful" for most women. I don't think you're a formula company shill, but this is a classic example of the anti-breastfeeding culture that we have in the UK.

Really? So it's easy for most women? In my mother's group most women who are bf have discussed how it was painful at first, and for some for longer. Many of them thought about giving up and some did. I guess they were RL shrills?

Pro bfers aren't helping by telling women it's really easy and never painful. It can be. That's the truth.

My best friend had many discussions with me about her problems breastfeeding, before she stopped at three months. I guess she is a shrill too. Nestlé sure are playing the long game with that one, as we've been friends for 20 years.

Don't be so black and white. There is a massive difference between saying it's not "bloody hard and painful" for most women and saying that it's easy for most women.

As I said, I don't think you or the mothers you've talked to are shills for formula companies.

I'm not going to tell women that breastfeeding is definitely really easy and never painful. Equally I'm not going to say that it's going to be really hard and painful. I agree with you that it can be painful and hard work, but not for most women and not for most women most of the time.

If I were in charge of marketing for a formula company I would totally have people posting on MN, especially as many mainstream marketing avenues are so restricted.

I think you can be a lot more subtle than just pro-formula/anti-breastfeeding posts, though.

For instance: An OP posts, "My EBF 6 week old baby won't stop crying" Then there are a few avenues you can take:

"Are you sure baby is getting enough milk?" (Undermines breastfeeding confidence, but won't arouse suspicion as it's a genuine possibility)

"Get your DH to give some formula so you can have a rest. You can go back to breastfeeding refreshed" (A very kind suggestion and formula top-ups/mix feeding are obviously perfectly possible, but if not done in the right way, there's a risk of diminishing supply and an early end to breastfeeding)

"Maybe it's something you're eating? Try cutting out dairy/ chocolate/ curry/ gluten/ eggs/ brassicas, etc. (A rare but real issue, makes breastfeeding look much harder for the mother and helps support the myth that only people with perfect diets should breastfeed)

"Maybe it's silent reflux? I switched my lo to (formula brand) and she was so much happier. (Again, plenty of babies diagnosed with silent reflux so it's a reasonable suggestion, but because it's "silent" it would be easy for a parent to misdiagnose, and a high rate of misdiagnosis would certainly improve my hypothetical sales of a formula, especially if I get my team to all recommended the same type of formula)

You don't even need feeding type mentioned in the post. You can respond to any baby problem with "Are you breastfeeding? Maybe it's x" Even if the OP isn't breastfeeding, lurkers might be.

And on the crying posts, don't mention that it's normal for babies to cry, with a peak at 6-8 weeks. Because if a Mum can have her confidence in BF undermined at 6-8 weeks, she might switch to formula and then her baby will cry less and sleep more. They almost certainly would have regardless, but some (not all!) of those mother's will think the change is due to the formula and continue to advise other mothers, thus doing my marketing team's job for me.

Now, I don't actually work in marketing, but I wonder if this approach has to be worth a few salaries out of the massive marketing budget.

Look, even if it is hard and painful, I'm not saying people should give up if they don't want too. Sometimes hard and painful things are worth doing. Ask marathon runners.

But it can be painful, I believe it's painful at first for most women. So saying "I don't see why anyone would ff, they must be fake posters" is silly. There are obvious reasons why people ff. And OPs question wasn't should people bf. It was about how posters here who say they ff are shrills. That's the question I'm answering.

I'm sure there probably are some shills here, it would seem too tempting not to. It's a huge site with exactly the right target market. And the big formula companies haven't exactly demonstrated that they're absolutely above board. What they get up to in countries with less stringent rules about advertising is shocking.

I can also believe that people assume other posters must have some nefarious motivation for their opinions about breastfeeding given how often anything even mildly positive about breastfeeding is shot down. It's immediately decried as far too hard, painful, tiring, etc etc with no real benefits. It makes it seem like only an martyr-ish fool would choose to breastfeed.

Or maybe it's their actual experience?

Yes, of course people are giving their individual experience. But given how often anything mildly positive about breastfeeding is shouted down with descriptions of how awful it is for zero benefit to anyone, no wonder some people make a probably wrong assumption that there's more to it. Personally I think they underestimate the depth of our formula feeding culture.

Really I believe those type of stories are helping, because women aren't going to bf if they are fed a pack of lies about how it's so easy and won't be painful at all (what my midwife said), then they find out the reality. Tell them what expect so they can be prepared, and they might be more willing to make it through the hard part.

Why do you think we have a ff culture though? Do you think it's just all marketing, or do you think it's because people are doing what they find easiest? Most likely it's a combination.

Do people really still use the words militant and breastfeeder in the same breath? Ffs

OP is correct to be aware of the might of the formula companies and it takes an idiot not to see how much those companies have hoodwinked women into believing the can’t, or worse, shouldn’t breastfeed.

Formula is a booby trap and very few mothers do not have the ability to breastfeed, what they don’t have is the help and support they need.

Support and help can only go so far, my midwives would have happily spent all night with me helping me bf, but it wasn't their nipples being mauled, it was mine. It was me suffering.

We have a formula feeding culture because of the massive loss of cultural breastfeeding experience/knowledge in previous decades of the 20th century, caused by a medicalisation of infant development. Aided and abetted by unscrupulous marketing if formula in the time before rules were tightened. Now in the UK most people formula feed and most people don't know women who breastfeed or see it around them. (This does vary regionally and there are some areas where this isn't the case).

We ll have to agree to disagree on that one. I think women of the past werent all earth mothers who loved breastfeeding. They had no choice. I'm sure a lot of them would have loved to have some formula and clean water available. Along with some contraception and a washing machine.

And if anything there's more information available now. A middle ages women could hardly consult the internet, or hire a lactation consultant.