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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To believe that formula companies have PR agents working the BF/FF threads on here?

999 replies

CocoDeMoll · 02/08/2018 20:53

They are a multi million pound set of companies that are invested in keeping Britain’s low breastfeeding rates down and keeping their profit margins up.

Any positives about breastfeeding seem to be shot down in flames on here.

So much pro formula and anti breastfeeding rhetoric.

They can easily afford to and have the best at the jobs be it lawyers, pr teams or spin doctors on their sides and they’re not exactly renounced for their ethics are they (nestle?!?!).

Or am I just getting a bit tied up in conspiracy therorys? Grin

OP posts:
Pengggwn · 04/08/2018 12:57

Hiking boots.

PersianCatLady · 04/08/2018 13:00

This implies you think I’m spreading some sort of opionion. It’s a factual lecture, you may choose to ignore it, believe what you wish and keep your own opinions. But they are just that
Not at all. I don't think you have an agenda or opinions at all.

I watched some of it and I think it raises some valid points but it is very one-sided.

I just wish that there could be a way for it to be simpler to discuss all of the facts about BF/FF without any of the FUD that there currently is.

PersianCatLady · 04/08/2018 13:02

what is being advertised to you currently on the webpage?
Clarks Shoes and EuroTunnel - two things I would never buy but I don't have a mobile phone .

ethelfleda · 04/08/2018 13:05

Of course you're not a bad parent peng but if I may, I'd like to suggest that women deserve a better product than what they are currently being offered and maybe that is what grandma is inferring?

That the choice between formula and breastmilk isn't a black and white one - that if women choose to use formula then we have the right to demand better regulation of that product?

Pengggwn · 04/08/2018 13:08

ethelfleda

Of course we do. It makes sense that the product should be as safe as possible.

PersianCatLady · 04/08/2018 13:08

about the relaunch of nutramigen. It’s claims are completely untested and they bypassed our FSA!
I am going to have a look online about this to see what I can find out about it in the interests of full understanding of your point.

PersianCatLady · 04/08/2018 13:18

@Grandmaswagsbag
Interesting enough, in your video there are pictures of cans of this formula milk and close ups of the claims that the manufacturer has made.

The video, rightly so, goes on to discuss whether or not it is acceptable for the manufacturer to make these claims based on the evidence that they have.

As far as I can tell, the current UK versions of these cans do not have these claims on the cans.

Maybe the video and its makers have succeeded in getting the claims removed??

PersianCatLady · 04/08/2018 13:19

Forgot to add, the cans sold in the USA still have the claims on the cans.

PineapplePower · 04/08/2018 13:23

There IS a lot of infantalising of pregnant and new mothers

I totally agree. Fed is Best is very, very patronising. It assumes women can’t handle the truth and we have to be careful of what we say or we’ll hurt some feelings.

If you choose to FF, you shouldn’t be made to feel guilty. And if you didn’t choose to FF, but have to, then you should be happy that such a product is available so your child will grow and thrive.

But don’t pretend it’s just as good as BM because it’s not.

Pengggwn · 04/08/2018 13:25

But don’t pretend it’s just as good as BM because it’s not.

That isn't what "Fed is Best" means.

AlmostAlwyn · 04/08/2018 13:32

According to my AdBlocker there are 23 ads blocked on this page!

Despite all the people saying, "of COURSE breastmilk is better than formula. Stop shoving it down our throats!", how did we get to a place where two thirds of people believe there's no difference between them? Advertising plays such an important role in disseminating information (even if it's false) to the population. And what one person sees in an advert, can become "common knowledge" in no time by being passed from person to person.

ethelfleda · 04/08/2018 13:45

grandma I just watched the video you linked to and I am beyond disgusted. My eyes have been opened!

Mum's who use formula - you have a right to demand a better product that is better regulated for for your babies.

This is the first food your baby will eat, when they are a vulnerable tiny newborn with a barely developed immune system.

MrSpock · 04/08/2018 13:46

But don’t pretend it’s just as good as BM because it’s not.

In a developed country, there’s very little difference. The main difference is the antibodies and by about two, most kids have built up an immunity anyway.

It’s like fresh and frozen brocolli. Fresh is slightly better but marginally.

ethelfleda · 04/08/2018 13:47

Advertising plays such an important role in disseminating information (even if it's false) to the population. And what one person sees in an advert, can become "common knowledge" in no time by being passed from person to person

This!

BertieBotts · 04/08/2018 13:49

I think there is a problem with breastfeeding in that many women are led to believe that they can't, or put through such stress and shitty treatment thanks to poor advice/too much pressure/combo of pressure plus bad support/info that they can't go on any more (and who would blame them) or in many cases given info which leads to their milk supply reducing or their discomfort/pain increasing. And actually, given the correct support and/or info, whether in response to problems or whether they'd had access to it from the start and avoided problems, they might have been able to breastfeed and/or had a much nicer, less painful, easier, less stressful experience.

And I do think some of this comes from formula companies' marketing and I do think some of it comes from living in a FF culture. It's not just one advert or website quiz or being sent a voucher in the post - I don't think that those single things disrupt breastfeeding, it's a combination of everything. When good support and information is not freely accessible, these other sources take over. The first thing people usually do these days is google something - and an article on a popular baby website sponsored by a formula manufacturer is likely to have a higher rating on google than something by a well evidenced breastfeeding support group. Formula companies have recognised that breastfeeding mothers who are struggling feel unsupported and so they develop a very cuddly, caring, nurturing sort of profile - in various guises. Aptamil's approach is "We know it's hard, so don't worry, come to our science and precision, we're not really like those other formulas". Cow and Gate's marketing is quite defensive, emphasising a kind of "fed is best" mantra and offering various cute products like cuddly toys and personalised books, SMA's marketing emphasises the benefits of FF - let Dad help, take a break, you're doing great.

If you don't google - you will ask your midwife, GP or health visitor. It's logical to go to these sources first. And yet if their training is poor, nonexistent and/or they have received aggressive marketing from formula companies, they are likely to give misleading advice/info. Sometimes it is simply wrong - I have heard so many women say that a midwife or health visitor told them a latch was "fine" when you cannot tell this only by looking, sometimes people have set ideas about timing or positioning or sleep safety and tell a woman that something she is doing is wrong, when it was working for her. Quite often the bare minimum of care is given - treatment for mastitis without any follow up support to work out why it happened in the first place, sticking-plaster solutions such as nipple shields or top up feeds (expressed or formula) with no long term follow up plan - whether that's poor training or lack of time/resources, I don't know. As stated earlier, they usually don't have awareness of all of the avenues of breastfeeding support available since these are mainly run by breastfeeding support organisations which are totally separate from NHS care. So people can hit a brick wall here.

Or you may ask family and friends. And if they happen to be well informed/experienced then you may get good info - but if they have the norms of a bottle feeding culture in mind then they are likely to have expectations which are not compatible with breastfeeding, such as babies having discrete and evenly spread feeding times, or breasts needing to be very full before a feed and that feeling empty means there isn't milk there, or ideas which might be unhelpful such as maybe your diet is poor, or suggestions like letting somebody give a bottle to give mum a break, which might well be fine, but it might be more beneficial to give her a break in other ways, especially if she ends up expressing and dealing with the cleaning and storage of the milk/bottle in order to facilitate this "break".

I understand this is an unpopular suggestion because saying that many women who stop breastfeeding could have continued given the correct information and support is often misconstrued as meaning that the woman did not try hard enough, should have magically been able to ascertain what is good info over bad, didn't read enough, didn't push through difficulties, whatever. Or invalidating her experience. I don't believe that at all. I actually think it's awful that new mums are left to navigate this alone. Nobody is born knowing how to breastfeed, we learn it from cues in our culture (other animals do, too - animals raised away from other nursing mothers tend to have more problems nursing their young) and then like everything else, we learn from physically doing it and trial and error - but if the main options we are being presented to trial result in error, it's less likely we will come across options which lead to success.

We could counter this (IMO) by including the physiological process of breastfeeding in the national curriculum as part of reproduction and human biology - that would give most people a baseline understanding of how milk production works, which may help avoid some of the myths people believe about BF.

Then either good training and info for front line HCPs and/or a lesser role in PCTs for a breastfeeding specialist who is actually trained in accordance with high standards - I know some areas have these specialists but their training seems to be hit and miss. Or for front line HCPs to be able to work with voluntary and other organisations and refer women to these experienced helpers - with a disclaimer about it not being NHS sanctioned, if you like. But at the moment women have a huge battle in front of them to find the support let alone access it. Are somehow expected to sort out good info from bad in a subject they have no existing knowledge in, and are then treated unsympathetically by people who are meant to support. No wonder we find breastfeeding really hard and challenging - in the UK at the present time it is absolutely not the case that 90%+ of women can breastfeed successfully, but it's not their fault.

Grandmaswagsbag · 04/08/2018 13:52

@PersianCatLady possible, as I think the lecture is from 2016. Maybe they have be made to remove claims since then. How’re ve nutramigen is still widely prescribed and I can’t imagine there’s been a giant overhaul in 2 years. To me the real shocker is the bit about the FSA. So if you skip to min 21 it explains. Mead Johnson should have sought confirmation from the dept of health and fsa to market the product in the U.K. as it’s a new product. They claimed that the fsa set up a COT (dept of toxicology) review and they were given the findings in May, yet the review didn’t take place until June. And they refuse to let anyone see the findings. I don’t think the lecture is one sided at all, as Dr Helen Crawley constantly contacts companies and governing bodies for information and their POV, findings of their research and findings of reviews of products. Unfortunately for them this time they got caught out lying.

Grandmaswagsbag · 04/08/2018 13:53

*however

Pengggwn · 04/08/2018 14:01

I remember the first night feeding my DD (she was about 18 hours old), and no milk had come through and I honestly thought she was starving - I was very distressed.

I know the support and cultural
'know-how' are lacking. I just don't blame formula companies or other mums who FF for that.

MrSpock · 04/08/2018 14:09

I had a weird issue with bf. I had LOADS of milk but DS couldn’t suck very well so it just used to run out everywhere and he’d come off the boob every few seconds. I thought pumping would be the answer but it was excruciating. Bf wasn’t THAT painful, but pumping was awful. Confused

I pumped a few bottles for a few weeks and let him attempt to bf when he wanted but mainly used formula because it just wasn’t sustainable. It’s a shame because if he had latched properly, we would’ve been able to do it. I kept asking the midwives for help and they were crap.

BertrandRussell · 04/08/2018 14:11

It if we had a bf culture not a bottle feeding one, you might well have been prepared for that by talking to friends, sisters, aunts and remember that it is normal for milk to not come in for 3 days, and you wouldn't have been distressed. I don't blame dd mothers, that would be silly. But I am sure the companies that make formula are very pleased about the decline in bf. To say the least.

Arewehomeyet · 04/08/2018 14:20

Just returned to link to a few papers hopefully some will find interesting. Sorry I couldn't do it straight away but there is such a thing as google!

I do think it's a shame we can't acknowledge that these scary formula companies (who put profits before lives) are very similar to the tobacco industry, without offending people who ff.

As parents we all do our best for our kids, based on the information we have. Sadly the majority of this information comes (directly and indirectly) from formula companies, often disguised as help and advice. And this is why openly debating that the formula companies will have infiltrated mum to mum support networks on line is vital.

pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/125/5/e1048?ijkey=6f35ee319af64adea8439a23889370ee72ab8f4b&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/pediatrics/113/5/e435.full.pdf

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2812877/

www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/lancet/PIIS0140-6736(15)01024-7.pdf?code=lancet-site

Pengggwn · 04/08/2018 14:21

BertrandRussell

But it is what it is. If other mothers choose not to BF, that is their choice. They are not obligated to educate me. Nor are formula companies doing anything wrong by creating a product for which there is clearly great demand.

We can't ask other people to create a "culture" for us. It's not on them.

Pengggwn · 04/08/2018 14:23

BertrandRussell

Plus, I am from a big family - deep down, I knew that the milk doesn't come through straight away (and the BF consultant told me). My distress wasn't a result of not having the correct information; it was just instinct.

BertrandRussell · 04/08/2018 14:24

"We can't ask other people to create a "culture" for us. It's not on them."

No. But we can counter misinformation. And we can stop spreading it.

Pengggwn · 04/08/2018 14:25

BertrandRussell

What misinformation?