To believe that formula companies have PR agents working the BF/FF threads on here?

[CocoDeMoll]

They are a multi million pound set of companies that are invested in keeping Britain’s low breastfeeding rates down and keeping their profit margins up.

Any positives about breastfeeding seem to be shot down in flames on here.

So much pro formula and anti breastfeeding rhetoric.

They can easily afford to and have the best at the jobs be it lawyers, pr teams or spin doctors on their sides and they’re not exactly renounced for their ethics are they (nestle?!?!).

Or am I just getting a bit tied up in conspiracy therorys?

"I am not sure how bottle feeding is contributory to someone being unable to BF?"
Because we live in a culture where bottle feeding is the norm, and where women are told that it is likely that they will not be able to bf. Very few healthy women with healthy babies actually can't bf. But if they approach it expecting not to be able to, any difficultly will be seen as can't-rather than- I need some help.

I agree with freedom of choice... BUT how free is your choice when a company targets you with millions of pounds worth of advertising? And how 'free' is your choice if the OP is right and anti-bf posts are also written by formula companies?

As free as choice can be. I see adverts every day, for all sorts of things I choose not to buy.

BertrandRussell

That doesn't mean they can't BF, Bertrand. It just means they need to do their own research and decide for themselves whether they can or can't do it. We can't blame the "culture" of formula feeding for women not checking their facts, or for women not having proper support from HCPs.

And I have never seen anyone told it is unlikely they will be able to BF. Who is propagating this information?

I haven’t read the whole thread as I think I’d lose the will to live. But even as a doctor, I can’t for the life of me see why people waste so much time and energy on the subject.
Millions of people in the U.K. were bottle fed (including me and both my DDs). We grew up healthy.
You cannot tell from looking at any adult’s medical record, weight or IQ, whether they were breast or bottle fed.
It makes absolutely no difference in the long term. Feed your own baby however you want. But don’t try to force your choices onto other mothers or judge them for being different. There is nothing inherently virtuous about breast feeding or demonic about formula. Both will nourish an infant.

What would have been wrong with a thread - perfectly reasonably - asking why support services for women who choose to try to BF are so poor?

Funny you should ask. We did have such a thread, not to long ago. I think we had some fairly good chat in there before it was completely derailed with this usual ff vs bf crap. We even got into some cultural differences between the UK and other countries as to why that is (and I believe Ireland has even worse rates than the UK, but willing to stand to correction on that).

A few posters said it wasn’t worth trying to raise EBF rates or that it couldn’t be done, until they were educated that quite a few developed countries have managed this—and perhaps it would be helpful to look and see what they’ve done.

Agreed - BF support needs to be better, but the key word has to be "support", not pressure, and not the tyranny of the minority either.

Yes, I very much agree. Pressure doesn’t help bf rates and only puts people off and makes what men feel guilty.

These people angry about low bf rates should be proactive. Write to their local hospitals about the lack f support they received, petition for breastfeeding support classes to be offered on the NHS etc.

Not shouting at mothers who don’t bf.

Women not what men

PineapplePower

Threads will go off topic. That isn't the point I was making. I was making the point that, if the lack of support for BF was the thing the OP wanted to discuss, that would - naturally - have been the subject of the post.

"And I have never seen anyone told it is unlikely they will be able to BF. Who is propagating this information?"
I said likely that they won't be able to. A subtle but important difference. I have never seen a thread on here where the person asking about bf has not said "I plan to try" or "if I can" or something like that. You don't use language like that it you believe that there is a 90-95% chance that you will be able to.

BertrandRussell

You are telling me there is a "subtle but important difference" between "unlikely they will be able to" and "likely they won't"?

I see no ships, Bertrand.

I say I plan to bf because I’m open minded. I also don’t plan to continue if it’s too exhausting or painful. I CAN breastfeed despite those things, but I don’t want to. I want to try bf and if it works out as convenient and fairly easy, great. But I’m not bothered if for me, it ends up as too much trouble.

That’s not me saying I can’t bf.

if the lack of support for BF was the thing the OP wanted to discuss, that would - naturally - have been the subject of the post

The topic they did bring up was a great one, though. Marketing departments absolutely go to where their target audience is, that’s the basics of their job. And I think it’s worth some discussion. Nowhere does she say that all positive posts are paid posters. That’s obviously ridiculous.

Consider this—Why do you think Americans care so much about Russian bots? Perhaps because they are .... influential?

BFing support in my experience was anything but support - it was just pressure to keep going. When someone has a broken leg, you wouldn't tell them to keep running

Polly, I agree with this 100%. When I was really struggling to BF DS in hospital (induced 3 weeks early due to cholestasis, severe jaundice, lost 13% of birth weight) the message was always just keep going. I was crying in that hospital bed for 8 days. A very kind midwife spoke to me about giving formula top-ups, I agreed and he got heavy enough for us to go home. When we got home he latched on and I've never looked back, but I know we were lucky in that respect and that this doesn't happen for plenty of women who want to BF.

I still struggled because DS had silent reflux (not diagnosed until he was 12 weeks despite my repeated pleas to the HV) and went to a BFing support group. The woman there was amazing - she actually showed me how to position and hold DS upright so he could feed better, no fucking knitted boob wielded half heartedly at me, just real, practical help. That is what is missing from BF 'support.' This woman appears to be the only free of charge BF counsellor in my city - everyone has seen her.

Once I had DS's feeding position sorted and we finally got ranitidine for his reflux things became much better but my God the support was shite until then.

PineapplePower

Or because they're paranoid? Honestly, I would eat my hat of formula companies - who are banned by law from advertising their products in the U.K. - paid people to disguise their identities on forums to persuade people to use formula. They don't need to. Their product is selling like ice on the Iberian Peninsula.

@ethelfleda

I don't think there's "no money to be made in breastfeeding"...

I paid handsomely for two lactation consultations, an electric breast pump, a supplemental nursing system, breast pads, galactogogue supplements, SO MUCH CHOCOLATE, bottles and sterilising equipment and replacement tubing for my pump...

Ask lansinoh and medela if there's money to be made in breastfeeding...

As free as choice can be. I see adverts every day, for all sorts of things I choose not to buy

I'm talking about on a national level though. Would it make a difference to the overall rates if breast milk could be advertised as much as formula? Not just in your home...

ethelfleda

Whose breast milk would you be advertising? It isn't a product.

Anyway, national level or individual level - it makes no difference. An advert might influence someone but it does not coerce them.

gierg I agree with the chocolate comment!

But in general, most breast feeding mothers will spend less money feeding their child than mothers who choose to use formula. Most things are one off spends (we bought a pump and bottles etc and one tube of lansinoh) and that's it in 9 months of breastfeeding (haven't stopped yet but doubt I will need to buy anything else...)

How can you advertise breast milk?

The closest I saw was adverts saying breast milk is free and breast feeding mums lose weight quicker, which is variable as far as I know.

Peng I know that- I mean hypothetically.

If breast milk was a 'product' and we could spend as much putting adverts on tv about breastfeeding (as formula companies do) and as much in to more research of breastmilk (as much as formula companies put in to r&d for their product) would it make a difference to the overall rates?
Sorry- I'm probably not explaining myself very well here!

@ethelfleda

I think I must have spent the same if not more weekly on breastfeeding as formula feeding...

A tub of formula here is what 80kr? (Denmark) Chocolate was 22kr and I ate a bar A DAY... I swear it was the only thing keeping my supply up as I had so little appetite due to anxiety about feeding...

On top of that I had the one off expenses... I spent SO MUCH to try and continue breastfeeding... my supplements were so expensive too... I think I spent £20 on a bottle of goats rue (the supplements worked yes, but I had to continually take fenugreek to see any impact!) these expenses were one of the reasons I stopped tbh...

The UK is generally pro-formula. If you were going to try and convert people to for then you'd pick a country where the bf rates are higher.

I think that there are shills on MN- Style and Beauty anyone? 😂

I totally disagree that MN is unusually pro-ff. If you compare the percentage of pro-bf posts to the percentage of women bf in the UK then the former outweighs the latter by miles. (I could Google the percentage of UK women who bf but I'd look like a shill)

We have a culture which creates a lot of guilt on women for parenting choices whether it's fitted shoes, OFSTED rating for your child's school, number of after school activities, car seat choice, affording private medical advice... My opinion is that this pressure comes from other women rather than men who care less whether other kids are weaned BLW or by spoon or purchased their trainers from Clark's or Sports Direct,

Not being able to BF is usually one of the first parenting decisions that women "fail" at. So it becomes a sore point when they hear that it's easy. A small percentage can't physically bf but for a greater percentage, they don't have the luxury of staying sat down with a baby clamped to their boob as there's housework, older siblings, no partner, no extended family to help...

@Babdoc careful with that kind of sensible thinking, you'll have a lactivist along soon telling you that formula is a one way ticket to deathsville. Yes you may be a doctor but they've Done Their Research (read a leaflet from 'Pro Breastfeeding Action Group of South Alaska' or similar)

From my own experience I simply couldn’t exclusively breastfeed. That’s all the experience of many of my friends who also tried very hard. I also was “informed” that hardly any women can’t breastfeed by the NCT and NHS so the implication is that I was just not trying hard enough. It’s quite simply total rubbish. We are putting pressure on women at a difficult time due to pseudoscience and the agenda of certain individuals instead of supporting them in raising healthy kids . We are totally failing to listen to women concerned.

And all the “formula” companies paranoia is nuts. No one is giving up breastfeeding because of advertising follow on milk. Women are not completely stupid! Formula milk is an essential food for babies and is extremely beneficial for them and will cause them no harm. The idea that it should be considered shameful to feed your baby that way is disgraceful.

ethelfleda

Nobody is stopping the government doing that.