LGBT+ at summer camp?

[TreeSqueak]

My dc are at a summer camp this week. It's a day camp run by a youth movement. The leaders are aged from 17/18 to mid-20s, the children 6-11. I can't fault the care, my dc have come home every day burbling with happiness, exhausted, loving the leaders and the activities.

Every day has a different theme. Yesterday it was LGBT+. I noticed the flags and facepaint when I dropped them off.

Dc told me last night that they had learned about every letter, what each one meant, including that you may not be the sex that you look like, how people were different and should change if they wanted to, and we should love and respect everyone, etc etc etc.

AIBU that this is not an appropriate theme for the setting?

Yeah I’d have an issue with it.

It isn’t a school setting.
These are not fully qualified teachers/advocates of sexual education

If I send my kids to play camp I expect them to have fun, not be taught some else’s version of the truth.

I'd like to also say that for those people who are saying :"Your child might be gay or a lesbian". Yes, and I'd be even more worried about my lesbian daughter. Lesbian girls, and girls who do not wish to conform to gender stereotypes are under the greatest pressure, especially from online grooming, to believe themselves to have been 'born in the wrong body'.

So low down on the totem pole of the LGBT community that some lesbians are actively campaigning to 'get the L out' of LGBT

So desperate are TRA to negate lesbianism that historical figures who are lesbians are being retrospectively 'transed' ie. described as transmen, rather than lesbians

I know I have digressed, but to me, the minute anyone says to a child that they can change sex if they don't feel "right' about themselves, then you are on a potentially rocky road

So no, even of you call me a T--f I am going to call that shit out

Most trans people just want to live their lives in peace like everyone else

Indeed, most ordinary normal trans people do just want to be left in peace to get on with their lives. They post here, and they say this on Twitter, and they're attacked & told they're "truscum" (a particularly nasty term).

The people who are campaigning so heavily for increased rights, reduction of safeguarding etc are the minority. They just shout the loudest

Yes, they're the minority. The problem is that they are being listened to by people changing policies which are not perfect, but have generally balanced women's rights with trans rights, and have served ordinary trans people to get on with their lives.

The extreme views expressed by trans activists are having inordinate influence over policy. And many ordinary transsexuals are as worried as many women are.

I would have an issue with that if my 6yo had been there. He's not commenced any sex Ed at school and we havent needed to address it at home either he would have been pretty confused by that and it's certainly not what I would have expected in that sort of setting

*Do you suspect she would want to? Like,reallywant to?

No?*

Before we go too far down the road of laughing at this idea, I can truthfully bear witness to a young lady who has had this idea cause problems and confusion for them, at one of the most confusing and difficult times in a young woman's life anyway, because they are a tomboy and might be gay.

I see two separate concerns and neither of them involve hating trans people.

The first is that potentially someone untrained and irresponsible might be telling a child that a role they have pondered being, whether it is superman or a dinosaur or the opposite sex it doesn't matter, we can give you an operation and turn you into that, when the reality is a dreadful harmful path and a lifetime of sacrificed potential and suffering that doesn't achieve it and sterilizes them - I would expect any discussion of that matter to be handled very carefully indeed by parents or at least trained professionals, not foisted on them by Quentin and Jemima on their gap year without asking a grown up.

The second one is safeguarding of children, women's spaces and so on. Again the problem is not trans people, it is the provision of access to other more sinister characters with basically no factual criteria that can be used to say no. You don't base access to women's children's spaces on some words said by the person who just really wants access. I think that whole discussion is pretty much off topic for this thread, but I will say I am still reeling at the news about the guides, which seems to suggest they have removed logical, physical criteria from whether men have access to guides and then have a policy to actively conceal that access from parents whole children are in their care which is one of the most fucked up things I have heard I'm a long time. Less related to this issue but I'm glad I now know about that.

ImAldoot

There are threads linked to it (The Guides) in Feminism Chat.

Swim England also decided to change it's policy to one of Self-Id, ahead of the law and in contravention of safeguarding

its policy, not it's

What are you worried about, your kids may be influenced by it..

Influenced into WHAT exactly? Loving and respecting everyone?

Or are you concerned they might 'catch the gay'.

Give your head a wobble.

I suggest you read the thread. Might answer your question

I suggest you read the thread. Might answer your question

Just because people don't agree, doesn't automatically they haven't read the thread.
I don't mind my kids being taught to be tolerant of others, or think that if they hear about the gays or the trans then it might make them want to be one.

Oh so it was a rhetorical question? I see. That's fine

Oh so it was a rhetorical question? I see. That's fine

Don't think it was a rhetorical question, just one that can have different answers.
Just sounded a bit patronising to assume the poster hadn't read the thread because they had a different view.

I don't mind my kids being taught to be tolerant of others,

I actively teach mine to be tolerant.

But that's not what the thread is about. It’s about inappropriate, counferfactual course content delivered by pressure groups trying to dismantle child safeguarding.

As I said before, I don’t care if it’s jesus Christ himself come to tell us to be nice to each other - if he’s promoting the dismantling of safeguarding rules I’ll be having words.

The trans lobby have done a good job. Any questioning of why things like safeguarding are being taken apart are being met with accusations of bigotry. They’ve linked the T (which isn’t a sexual orientation) in with the LGB, a worthy cause, again this stops people questioning too closely. And now stonewall have extended the umbrella of what trans is to include AGP individuals. And no one is allowed to raise an eyebrow, lest we be mocked as bigots. It’s a coup, you have to admit.

And yet, the group that are training schools are still trying to dismantle safeguarding. I don’t think that’s OK and I will continue to ask why they want to do that.

I actively teach mine to be tolerant

Presumably not to transpeople though.

rainbows

Here's one of my answera to your question. Maybe you missed it back on page 12. It's fine of you disagree. You can fling around accusations of intolerance of you like. Doesn't make it true

"I'd like my child to be taught the difference between sex and gender

I'd like my child taught that how you dress, what you're interested in, what you do, and who you love, is not dependent on whether you are a boy or a girl

I'd like my child taught that people cannot change sex

I'd like my child taught that some people believe things that are different from what I believe. But that they don't have to believe it too. I can be respectful but I do not have to agree.

I'd like my child taught that someone is not a woman simply because he says so.

I'd like my child taught that if what someone is telling them makes them uneasy or scared; they can trust their feelings and not accept what the other person is telling them to be the truth

I'd like my child to understand that in their lives they may experience mental illness or distress and that there are people who can support them with that

And none of this would I like to be taught at a summer cam by some youths"

Presumably not to transpeople though.

Multiple times through this thread I have reiterated that transpeople deserve the legal protections they have under law and should be able to live their lives peacefully without discrimination or abuse. Multiple times.

My beef is with the vocal pressure groups who are trying to dismantle child safeguarding and remove all the legal protections women have the people who are pushing harmful drugs on children and leaving children who disclose they are questioning their gender at grave risk of abuse because they are advocating for confidential disclosure.

As you will know if you’re a regular on FWR - these are concerns that transsexuals (who label themselves transsexuals by the way) share and agree with.

NOBODY should be allowed to teach stuff in schools that threatens safeguarding. Nobody. For any reason.

Or do you think stuff like confidential disclosure and removal of multi agency working is fine?

Do you have an issue with other instances where confidential disclosure is In place?

For instance, where a 13 year old seeks advice or medical treatment on sexual health - see here for an outline of the NHS position. It explicity says there is a right to confidentiality.

Its a lot like the guidance in the LGBT guidance document linked by another poster earlier (page 23).

Both have confidential disclosure as the starting point, but with further steps to be taken where there is a child protection or wellbeing concern.

Do you think the NHS confidential disclosure guidance puts children at grave risk of abuse?

How about confidentiality for a child who tells a teacher they are gay. Do you think that child is at grave risk of abuse because they are given the right to confidentiality unless there is a specific child abuse or wellbeing concern?

Confidential disclosure is not, in fact, some brand new thing that is just for trans disclosure.

It's already in use for other scenarios where a child may disclose something that is not a child abuse or wellbeing concern.

The right to privacy for minors in certain disclosure scenarios is already in place and being applied routinely.

Why do you think trans disclosure puts children at grave risk of abuse but not the others?

Safeguarding remains the overide in any disclosure, but where there is no concern about child abuse or well being confidentiality may be respected and advised.

The Scottish guidance doc that was linked is very clear about this, and says also that being transgender is not a child protection concern in itself (page 23).

There is no blanket right to confidentiality with gillick/Fraser competence. As the NHS say ‘The only time a professional might want to tell someone else is if they believe there is a risk to your safety or welfare, such as abuse. The risk would need to be serious, and they would usually discuss this with you first.’

If the HCP believes the child is in danger they can and will act. In fact they must.

No other group advocates for specifically not telling parents. No LGB group does. There’s nothing wrong with a child being gay and it's not a comparable situation - a gay child is not going to be directed down a medical route that will end up on blockers, cross sex hormones and surgery. It’s not a sign of potential grooming.

However the vocal TRA groups are very very keen to keep the ‘well you wouldn’t mind if they were gay’ angle because it gives them legitimacy.

What we are seeing as a push from these vocal groups is that ONLY affirmative treatment should be allowed. Theu are pushing parental alienation - there are so many you tubers coming out with stuff aimed at kids telling them they can ‘get new parents’ or ‘trust their glitter family.’

They are pushing for parents who advocate watch and wait to be reported to SS. They are pushing for, for example, gender to be added to the upcoming bill against gay conversion therapy. Of course gay conversion therapy should be banned - it’s bloody awful an you can’t and shouldn’t change someone’s orientation. But what will happen if gender is added? It becomes a conflict. If a child is going to end up a lesbian and the only legal route is blockers, affirmative surgery and telling her she’s a straight boy that IS conversion therapy.

So back to disclosure. These groups are pushing for:

Confidential disclosure
The ONLY legal path to be affirmation (despite the fact no one can change sex.) of affirmation is the only legal path, and parents are reported to SS for advocating watch and wait, we could potentially be on a situation where without the parents knowledge or ability to intervene a child is placed on blockers.

Thatvis a massive safeguarding issue. It’s absolutely nothing like the situation with a 15 year old getting the pill or a child telling someone they are gay. It’s something that experts in CSA like Jessica Eaton are seeing first hand - and they are finding their hands tied because of attitudes like this - that questioning is bigotry.

Scroll down to comment from thatDrEM at 10:25.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3324391-Paedophile-expert-warns-of-transitioning-as-a-ploy#prettyPhoto

Well, you've thrown in a lot of presumption about a child being steered towards medical transition and parents being pressured into affirmation under threat of social services, none of which is connected to the confidential disclosure question.

Can you put aside for the moment your conviction that an adult receiving the disclosures will seek to encourage medical transition pathway? There's nothing in that schools guidance doc to suggest that this would be advised or encouraged.

I get the impression that you are spending time finding and reading some extreme activist propaganda, and maybe that's skewing your views a bit, but imagine for a minute the average teacher reading that guidance document and supporting their student using it as a guide.

They're not going to be telling the kid to get onto blockers and showing them where to find them illegally online. It's actually pretty disparaging to school staff to paint them as being likely to put their students at grave risk of abuse by steering them towards ill considered medicalisation in secret.

If any professional in a safeguarding role believes a child to be at risk of harm they must pass that on. This applies to all confidential disclosures by a child, not just trans. So it's no clearer after all that why you think confidential disclosure for trans issues makes a child at grave risk of child abuse while the other situations don't.

When you make a comparison with a gay child disclosure, it seems like you consider trans disclosure to carry a high risk of grooming. Is that what you meant?

What's more, there are some valid concerns about online materials accessed by children. It's better to have confidential disclosure available, meaning that there will be a professional and trained adult keeping an eye and being a listening ear, and to give support with guidance that isn't some crazy website.

Take away the confidential, and you can guarantee fewer disclosures and therefore less oversight and less opportunity to intervene for safeguarding if, for example, a child was seeking to access blockers online or actually was at risk of being groomed by some evil bastard.

Yabvu
Nrtft btw. Children need to be taught to except everyone the way they are. Too many people in this world are full of judgment & hate.

Surely a child disclosing gender dysphoria always raises concerns about their wellbeing? This is a mental health issue that has a high possibility of leading to a lifetime of medication and possible surgery which is provided only because it is perceived that otherwise they may seriously harm themselves (the better a new daughter than a dead son line of thinking). If they are not disclosing gender dysphoria then why would the school or other setting need to respond at all?

Here is a direct link to @ThatDoctorEm's post on the other thread where she describes how 'trans' seems to be using the process/normalising the process which paedophiles have used for eons.

She's not saying trans people are paedophiles she is saying the way transactivists are eroding safeguarding procedures is something we have seen before and in the past it has worked as a conduit for paedophiles to contact children and to put those who care about children's safety and wellbeing off the scent.

Jessica Eaton is not 'some extreme activist' she deserves to be listened to.

I get the impression that you are spending time finding and reading some extreme activist propaganda

I wouldn’t call sober articles in peer reviewed journals ‘extremist literature’ no. Nor would I consider listening to medical and social work experts working in the field extremist. Nice accusation though, thanks for that - now I’m a bigot and an extremist? Cheers. I was called a eugenecist the other days as well - perhaps I need to engage our friends Carter Ruck to defend me against such slurs...?

As ihunt says, A child who discloses any kind of dysphoria (anorexia, body morphic dysphoria, gender dysphoria) is by definition vulnerable. this is not the same as a child disclosing they are gay. It’s a child disclosing a serious disconnect with their physical body and that alone is a safeguarding issue. The nature of the disclosure = vulnerability.

The social worker in that tweet above has direct experience of such children being groomed online - again I must reiterate not by trans people, by predators. Other SWs have confirmed that they face this on different threads. Some have seen an upsurge in transactivists training to get into the profession and move into child protection.

Predators will exploit any loophole they can.

When you have a situation where teachers are told not to inform parents, and where there is massive grooming online, you have a loophole. A huge, massive great loophole and predators (and again, since I seem to need to qualify this every time I say it, I’m not talking about transpeople I’m talking about people who will use any loophole to abuse kids) WILL exploit that.

It’s either stunningly naive or deliberately obtuse to not see this.

Some excellent posts here, Bowlofbabelfish