LGBT+ at summer camp?

[TreeSqueak]

My dc are at a summer camp this week. It's a day camp run by a youth movement. The leaders are aged from 17/18 to mid-20s, the children 6-11. I can't fault the care, my dc have come home every day burbling with happiness, exhausted, loving the leaders and the activities.

Every day has a different theme. Yesterday it was LGBT+. I noticed the flags and facepaint when I dropped them off.

Dc told me last night that they had learned about every letter, what each one meant, including that you may not be the sex that you look like, how people were different and should change if they wanted to, and we should love and respect everyone, etc etc etc.

AIBU that this is not an appropriate theme for the setting?

Rainbows that's what it said in the OP. Just going off that.

Not misunderstanding on purpose, was genuinely wondering how as you said child safeguarding was thrown out of the window when it came to trans.

No problem. It was a bit overwhelming to me tbh when I discovered quite the advice GIRES, Mermaids et all actually advise schools and other places who are responsible for the care of children. I guess as someone who has recently started posting in FWR after only ever really using the rest of the site..I am now too used to certain posters showing up to purposely misunderstand posts or twist whats actually been said. Apologies, for looking at that reply with suspicion.

But yeah, the fact that someone is trans is not a safeguarding issue. Its the advice given by organisations who claim to represent trans people.

Hmmm. You can't really teach the love, tolerance and respect for minority groups without explaining the minority groups - and in this context this means youth workers explaining sexual and gender preferences to 6-11 year olds? The context is all wrong.

From the Allsorts Toolkit for Schools, as promoted by the Transgender charity Mermiads:

School staff should not disclose information that may reveal a pupil or student’s transgender status or gender nonconforming presentation to others, including parents, carers and other members of the school community unless legally required to do so or because the child or young person has asked them to do so.

That is really scary, given what we know about grooming, AND grooming on the internet. Very scary advice.

The more I think about this the more infuriated I think I'd be. I had a letter from my DC school about the new phse and gave me an option to withdraw them (I did say I didn't want them being taught about transgenderism and I'd withdraw them from that part, the HT invited me and a load of other parents who said the same in and said they are not covering this topic for the same concerns we had, but wished us luck battling it when they get to high school ). Op hasn't been given this option here which is very wrong.

@RatRolyPoly my 7 year literally believes a man comes from the north pole every year to give her presents.

She believes that God is real because school have told her so.

I don't want her also believing she can literally change sex. She can't.

I don't want her also believing she can literally change sex. She can't.

Do you suspect she would want to? Like, really want to?

No?

So why are you so het up about it?

And if you thought - honestly, really, from your heart thought - she might at some point want to, to the point of taking hormones, having surgery, or to the point of it driving her to despair.... wouldn't you want her to learn about tolerance of transpeople?

happygoldfinch I totally agree. Yes, it’s something everyone should learn about, but no, not in this context.

If it were really (as some posters have suggested) about one of the camp attending kids coming from a family with LGBT parents it could have been delivered in a far more general way (some families have one parent, some have two, some have extra step parents, some kids have just a mum or just a dad, some have two mums etc etc).

And we need to ask why. Why have referrals of girls gone up 2000%? What’s the influence of the toxic hypersexualised society we live in? What’s the influence of social media? What’s the influence of things like ASD (v high proportion of ASD kids in these cohorts). What’s the influence of our narrow gender stereotypes?

This Your posts are brilliant @bowlofbabelfish - thank you for your clarity.

Homosexuality is normal, and should be treated as such.

Gender dysphoria, like other bodily dysphorias, would seem to be a symptom of a deeper mental health issue.

Every time this debate comes up, I think of my beautiful sister, who spent most of her life from around the age of 2 to the age of 14 wanting to be a boy, dressing like a boy, wanting to do "boy things", loving it if people thought she was male.

She's not trans and actually not gay either: there was a family issue about favouritism towards a subsequent boy child (my brother) throughout the family (this was many decades ago). Under the circumstances, the psychological damage done to her was completely understandable - she saw what attention and spoiling boys got, so of course she wanted to be a boy.

My mother was sensible & just let her be (perhaps recognising & taking responsibility for the damage done to my sister by the wider family).

Nowadays, her behaviour would be pathologised, and I dread what would happen to a child showing similar behaviour according to Mermaids, Stonewall, and Action for Trans Health, and other highly politicised lobbying groups.

I work in a Primary school. There is a world of difference between answering children's questions as they arise (even children who you know well - which these camp leaders do not) and delivering a planned session around PSHCE issues.

At the very least, parents at this camp should have been informed about the focus and content of this session.

You also would never deliver the same session to 6 year old as to 11 year olds.

It's not about differences - its about truth. Why didn't they teach about respect for people with disabilities, the elderly, about family breakups, respect for nature and the environment?

Typical to throw an insult when people question what children are being taught at a summer camp.

Do you suspect she would want to? Like, really want to

See, that the problem. Way back I'd have said 'no'. But these days when there is so much misinformation on the internet and elsewhere you really have to worry. It was only yesterday I read something by a young man along the lines of how it was only after reading about intergender he knew this was him and now he was researching it ... and I've read similar before many times. People cannot change sex and giving the false impression they can is very, very wrong.

I could write our a carefully articulated argument but instead I'll surmise with this:

You're a fucking bigot.

Do t want my children being taught lies Rat

I don't want my children being taught lies, that should have said

Come on now IKnowItsTIMHONKSTIMHONKS - say what you think, don't hold back then!

Do you believe that a man can really become a woman? I don't know if this is what these kids were told - but some kids certainly are being told this.

Do t want my children being taught lies Rat

Well it's going to come as a bit surprise to you then when you realise that half the things we teach children are huge over-simplifications of the truth. If you want to call those "lies" you might want to work out how you're going to teach your children anything at all.

I'd like my child to be taught the difference between sex and gender

I'd like my child taught that how you dress, what you're interested in, what you do, and who you love, is not dependent on whether you are a boy or a girl

I'd like my child taught that people cannot change sex

I'd like my child taught that some people believe things that are different from what I believe. But that they don't have to believe it too. I can be respectful but I do not have to agree.

I'd like my child taught that someone is not a woman simply because he says so.

I'd like my child taught that if what someone is telling them makes them uneasy or scared; they can trust their feelings and not accept what the other person is telling them to be the truth

I'd like my child to understand that in their lives they may experience mental illness or distress and that there are people who can support them with that

And none of this would I like to be taught at a summer cam by some youths

LGBT+ won’t make children that way.

I have a 5-year old granddaughter. She dislikes pink, loves cars, climbing, numbers. She knows that she likes 'boy' things much more than 'girl' things.
Her parents let her know that it's okay to like whatever she wants.

If someone were to tell her, though, that she could change sex, she might well think that sounded like a good idea and start to become 'consistent, persistent and insistent' about it.

As a child of 5, and in the following years, she would have very little way of understanding the consequences of becoming trans yet her decision could be completely accepted by adults around her.

(However, if she said "I never want to have babies, even tho I'm a girl, please do an operation to stop that", there'd be no chance of anyone taking her seriously until she was at least 30.)

These threads are always such a great way to see all the TERFs Mumsnet has
Hate to break it to you, but it's not just on Mumsnet you know. What you call TERFs are everywhere.

It reminds me of the dog/rabbit masked cat experiments that were done on small children (they were asked if the creature was now a cat/dog/rabbit). By around 6/7 most children knew it was a cat.

I tried replicating this experiment (I was studying psychology and part of it was going into schools) on a young child (who was about 4) who rolled her eyes, puffed and told me very slowly ' it's still a cat... you silly'.

Not cats or small children were harmed.

Not cats or small children were harmed

And the person who had to put the masks on the cat?

That’s charming TIMHONKS thank you.

Do you think that child safeguarding procedures should be adhered to or not? If a group wants to actively contradict those procedures should they be allowed to with no questions asked, or should a careful look at their materials be done to ensure that safeguarding is upheld?

There are materials which can be used in schools which deal with transgender issues that do not contradict safeguarding.

You can call me a fucking bigot all you like. I’ll continue to press for upholding safeguarding and multi agency working in schools because it keeps children safer. No group gets a pass on this. Not for any religion, ideology, idea or group. None. If it was Jesus Christ himself coming down to educate us about adorable kittens while strewing gold coins in his wake but it contradicted safeguarding them mybreaponse would be the same. No way.

That's right Transplants. There is a difference and that is nowhere in the agenda. I see it a bit like religion where I taught my daughter that some people believe in .... Some people , like me and... Don't believe that. Parents should certainly be informed about the fact that they are unlikely to agree with some of what is being talked about, and that their children might return with some strange ideas...