To have left them alone

[Karmin]

Hi

I really want Mumsnet advice, I don't know if I was wrong and I am fully prepared for flaming.

I am signed off sick at the moment, due to a mental health episode. I work as an admin for children's social care.

Yesterday I was called into an absence meeting, I took my partner in as due to the medication I am on I wanted to make sure that anything important would be remembered. I left the car at 13:58 and we returned at 14:12.

The car was parked in the building carpark outside under the tree, windows left open, they were close to the building where my old team members were. DS2 and 3 were in the car and the dog. The Dog was secured behind a dog guard. DS2 is 10 years old, DS3 is 2. DS2 adores DS3 and I was happy that should DS3 become upset DS2 would have immediately brought him in and come to us as he has been into my work before.

A social worker came to the window during the 10ish minute period and asked him who he was, a social care referral has now been made, my partner was called by my manager this morning to let him know in advance.

I am swinging between tears and anger. I know there is no legal limit to leave a child alone, I thought I had left them in a safe manner, I knew it was going to be a short how are you doing meeting. They were in a car park off the road next to a safe building, where all adults are checked and safe. I thought I had taken every precaution, the dog was secured away from them, so even if he had a random never before seen aggression he couldn't get to them. (He is a puggle)

Was I wrong?

Birdsgottafly

Adults can't make phone calls and think rationally during a crisis with their children etc, how do you expect a ten year old to do the same.

Please tell what crisis you thought would ensue in the space of 10 minutes with 2 well behaved children in a secure car park surrounded by full DBS checked adults.

If it was an hour, different thing entirely. But 10 minutes. Really?

Trouble is OP has taken responsibility on here but started off being angry that the referral was made

I'm guessing she didn't accept her bad decision making at the time which would have made a referral more important if she couldn't see where she was wrong

A 10 year old and an 8 year old for 15 minutes I think yes I would do that - but not a toddler

I have never known an absence meeting to take just ten minutes. What was your DP thinking?

Anyway, what's done is done. If you are happy that your children are in a safe and loving home then you have nothing to fear from the sw referral. Take any help you can get! Hope you're feeling better soon.

You were gone for a quarter of an hour and for all you knew, the meeting could have taken double that time.

I would've been happy to leave the 10yr old and the dog under those particular circumstances (as long as the child had a phone), but not a 3 year old.

I could not have brought myself to do this, even if the likeability is that they would have probably been safe. There's always the " what ifs" and the fact the youngest child is only 2 would make it a definite no.

For those that keep saying you should know better if you work for social care, I worked at the sharp end of social care for a number of years. We didn’t have the resources to deal properly with children living in households where where there were drugs and weapons. I had a case where the mother was suffering an eating disorder and likewise wasn’t feeding her child either. I saw babies come into this world already addicted. Children were left overnight with no adults.

Leaving a sensible 10 year old with a 2 year old for under 15 minutes 2 minutes away from the parents and in shouting distance of other adults the 10year old already knows can help him is not exactly a big deal compared to the real cases we should be dealing with. However, everyone loves to cover their back, and it’s much easier to deal with a mum who left her kids in the car a few minutes and will listen to you, than someone that’s off their face on drugs or alcohol and will probably be violent.

Maybe it’s wasn’t ideal, but ffs it’s not child abuse. Every time a referral gets made for this kind of trivia, it’s time taken away from kids who are in real, serious danger and harm. Bad things can happen anywhere and at any time, but personally I’d say the risks were both low and mitigated in this case, provided the keys weren’t left to make it easy to drive the car.

I think you were wrong yes, particularly if it was hot yesterday where you were. Leaving dog and children in a car alone is wrong. Your partner should have stayed with the children. If you needed him with you, you should have arranged a babysitter, or rearranged the meeting.

Sorry OP but agree with everyone else, especially as you work in social care you should know that this is unacceptable especially with how hot the weather is and the fact that children can not protect themselves when someone tries to hijack the car and your kids. You did put them in direct danger, when your husband could have stayed in the car or you could have made alternative child care arrangements and left the dog at home.

I'm amazed by how short the meeting was... including walking through car park.

This was a poor decision, but as you are struggling the onus here was on your partner.

I wouldn’t have left my dog alone in this weather for 15 mins, let alone my children! Even in the shade with the windows open. And I really wouldn’t have left my children with windows open, especially one who is just 2 years old.

@Notevilstepmother, how could she have been sure that the meeting was only going to be 15 minutes. It does not take long for someone to approach the car and to drive off with the children who have no way or means of protecting themselves.

And how many times do we have to see ads where it is clearly mentioned that even if a car is parked in the shade with windows down your pets and children can still over heat.

OP I'm sorry about your predicament, but if you read any of the advice on leaving dogs in cars, you will find that even shade and an open window is insufficient to cool a parked car to a safe level. If that is the case for dogs, it is presumably equally dangerous for small children. In which case there is not just the issue of the children being unsupervised but that they were left alone in a potentially dangerous situation. You were lucky in that you were not reported for leaving the dog too. See extract from article below as well as a small selection of other sources.

" Leaving dogs in cars
You may as well leave your dog in an oven"
" Almost half of us (48%) believe it is ok to leave a dog in a car if counter-measures are taken, such as parking under a tree or leaving a window open. Unfortunately, this is a myth - in reality partially lowering the window has no significant effect on the temperature inside a parked car.

20 minutes can be fatal
Less than 20 minutes in a hot car can prove fatal to a dog should its body temperature exceed 41°C. As the temperature inside the car rises, in just a matter of minutes, the dog’s suffering will become evident through excessive panting, whimpering or barking.
This will develop into a loss of muscle control and ultimately the kidneys will cease to function, the brain will become irreversibly damaged and the heart will stop."
.www.theaa.com/newsroom/news-2015/dogs-in-cars-aa-dogs-trust.html
www.rspca.org.uk/adviceandwelfare/pets/dogs/health/dogsinhotcars
inews.co.uk/news/uk/dog-owners-warned-of-penalties-over-leaving-pets-in-cars-during-hot-weather-and-what-to-do-if-you-spot-it/

I would not have had a problem with my 10 year old supervising a toddler in a car for 10 mins
But in this heat?

'Maybe it’s wasn’t ideal, but ffs it’s not child abuse'

Who suggested it is child abuse? The dp however should have had used common sense and arranged something else. Just because you've dealt with the 'sharp end' of social care doesn't mesn DC and a pet being left alone for however long the op guessed she'd be, in a car on a hot day should be ignored.

But it wasn't 10 minutes. It was 14 by her estimate which seems very short for walking to and from car, booking in for appt, actual appt. It could very easily have gone on much longer. What is there had been a fire alarm and they couldn't get across to the car park?

But actually the onus was on DH

2 and a half thousand children die on uk roads each year.

About 1 child a year is kidnapped in a stolen car, and generally abandoned somewhere.

Risk assessment requires a use of the actual mathematical risk, not just hysteria.

Those children were in more danger during the journey to the meeting.

As I said, leaving the keys with the child would increase the risk, so it would be sensible not to do that.

Bad things happen. But we don’t refer every child going to cross the road to social services, even though that is very dangerous.

I’m not saying it’s the best idea, but actually it isn’t that dangerous.

I think what some people are missing is not how long the meeting had been, but how long it could have been.

There is no way the OP could've guessed it would only take 14 minutes to leave the car, walk from the car park to the meeting room, go in, sit down, discuss her absence and the particulars of getting back to work etc, leave the room, walk back to the car and climb in.

That would have been what the Social Worker was getting at, I'm sure.

I think most people would expect to be gone from the car for at least half an hour.

Reasons not to...

Child could have a choking episode.

Car could have been involved in a car accident (I’ve been in a stationery car in a car park before when an oblivious lorry driver reversed into us, despite beeping the horn constantly he carried on reversing, shunting our car over, caving the side of the car in and breaking the windows, covering my DP in broken glass. The lorry driver eventually realised we were there before squashing us against the wall opposite.)

Overheating.

Child abduction.

There are many other scenarios which, although unlikely, are not outside the realms of possibility. Shit can and does happen.

As another PP has said, the fact that the OPs initial response at the referral is anger... shows that it is definitely warranted.

If it’s not child abuse (neglect in this case) it doesn’t need a referral.

It’s an overreaction to refer, hardly surprising in this current culture. Schools dealing with actual cases of neglect struggle to get social workers involved, a little boy actually died of not being fed, but leave your children in the car for a while and get referred.

I’m not saying it’s ideal, I’m not saying they couldn’t have said something, but when it’s almost impossible to refer from a school, yet this gets a referral, something isn’t right.

The difference Notevilstepmother is you're waking your 2 yo across the road. If the 10 yo did fully unsupervised and something happened, people would question the logic of letting a 10 to take a 2 to four a walk that involves road crossing. Because at 10 their judgement is not what it will be as an adult, and they haven't the maturity for coping in a crisis like the average adult

Well it seems some people still think it's okay to leave children and dogs alone in a hot car:

"2. Cars
Babies and toddlers die each year when their parents accidentally leave them strapped into their car seats in hot cars. Nearly 40 children die of hyperthermia each year in the US. Numbers in Europe appear to be proportionally lower than in America - which is unsurprising, given the high temperatures recorded in US southern states, but between 2007-2009, there were seven fatalities in France and Belgium, according to Child Safety Europe. One such tragedy was reported last year in Ireland.

How can we prevent hyperthermia deaths?

Never ever leave a child alone in a car"

www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/family-holidays/how-to-protect-babies-and-children-from-the-dangers-of-hot-weather/

what you need was very dangerous. What if another car had crashed into yours?

What if your car had caught fire?

neither are beyond the realms of possbility

It’s me driving too, not the 10 year old. Still not safer.

I agree it wasn’t the best idea. I don’t agree it meets referral criteria.

You're just going to have to be as cooperative as possible, and accept that you made a mistake. It will look worse if you argue. You shouldn't have left the dog alone in a car on a warm day, let alone a 10 year old in charge of the dog and a 2 year old.

Between you and your partner one of you should have realized you weren't being sensible. He should have stayed.

And was it really only ten minutes? It's unlikely a social worker was randomly passing. Unless you work at the council it's more likely someone in a building saw two children alone and called them.