AIBU to be furious or am I overreacting? TW

[Yetanotherusername1]

I posted this in Chat but got no traffic. Hope it's ok to put here.

Potential trigger warning re: abuse

Hope I have covered bases by posting the TW. I wouldn't want to cause anyone any distress.

Ok, so I have posted about having issues with my dd's friend before and have had lots of really useful advice and I thought I was managing their interactions. I have name-changed because I am a bit paranoid about being outed so please can no-one link to the previous thread. Girl has potential ASD issues and can be a bit controlling but dds and son like playing with her. Child is 8. She has tickled my dd between her legs before whilst playing before and I have had to ask her to not touch my dd down there. Yesterday she did it again. DD ran in and told me immediately as I have taught her to do. The friend ran off and slammed her door which she does whenever she has done something wrong.

I had to talk to her mum which I found EXCRUCIATING and uncomfortable, mainly because I have some trauma in this area. I summoned up the courage and went round and asked for a quiet word. Her mum apologised but didn't seem overly concerned. I asked her to please reinforce with her dd about bodies and where it is ok to touch other children. Mum assures me that she does tell her this regularly and it was probably just her being silly.

I feel quite squicked out about it for a number of reasons. DH said I did the right thing and the kid probably just needs boundaries enforced. I thought I handled it well. Today my dd came in and said the girl, along with another girl, was trying to pull down my younger son's pants. I went out, they were all playing on the grass in front of my house, and talked to one of the girls, who assured me it was just a joke and it was largely because my boy fell over and grazed his thigh which he had. I looked around for my son and realised he had gone down the side of my house, when I walked round he was being manhandled by dd's friend trying to pull his pants down. I shouted at him to come to me. I took him in and chatted to him about what was happening. He burst into tears and said she was trying to see his privates. She specifically asked for him to show it to her. He said stop. I heard him saying stop as I walked around.

I went out and raised my voice. Not insanely, but I did make it clear I was angry and I told both of the girls off. I've kept him inside, but now he wants to go back out and play.

What do I do? Do I put it down to children mucking around or do I have to have yet another conversation with her mum? It seems her mum hasn't reinforced boundaries like I asked at all. Or is this just a child with possible ASD not understanding boundaries?

I feel really angry and tearful. I don't know if I am overreacting because I have some abuse in my past. I'm on my own with both of the kids at the moment and don't have anyone to run this past except here! Any advice greatly appreciated?

As far as I am aware she is not delayed. They all play together and we all keep an eye on them but not constantly. It's a very small area, you keep your window open or door open and you can hear most things.

I don't think her mum believes that she needs that much supervision. Particularly when she is with my kids who are pretty sensible.

My son has ASD and fairly severe behavioural problems, but has never tried to touch other children in inappropriate places, or tried to pull their pants down. I think the ASD thing is probably a red herring. It's true that kids with ASD often have problems with social communication, but sexualised touching is something else.

OP, in my view you'd be justified in keeping this child away from your kids, or at least supervising very very closely. Contacting the NSPCC for advice would also be a good move.

Ok thanks all.

I have actually sent a late night text to the mum telling her about this and asking to talk tomorrow. She's responded straightaway and is obviously upset and wants to chat.

I'll see where we go from here. Thank you all and I think I might ask for this thread to be deleted.

I’ve just double-checked and the neighbour child is 8yo. Sorry, but at that age they are mostly past any innocent inappropriate touching. It’s purposeful, and she’s continued in spite of being chastised. She’s not picked on a younger/nicer child for nothing, another 8yo wouldn’t have a bar of this, and likely exclude her from games.

I’m surrounded by 8yo girls & boys, and this behaviour is clearly in the ‘must be curtailed by very clear natural consequences’ category, like being kept indoors for several days. For mine.

If it were me, I’d be doing two things. I’d ask the mother very definitively to ground her for two days, to give her and child the space & time to reflect on the behaviour. Two reasons: it shows you are escalating the seriousness at your end (rather than just ‘reraising’ the same concern). Also, it compels the mother to actively go against you if she lets the child out again that day. Effectively this gives you your answer, and reason enough to end the friendship/interactions. She’s done it, not you. I say this because the idea of putting your own boundaries seems to be stressing you out a lot.

Frankly, I’d up my supervision anyway, and be straight out there making life uncomfortable for the neighbour kid and her friends 24/7 for a while. The ‘private parts’ speech doesn’t have to be only given by the kids’ parent, any grown up will do. Do it like a broken record I say, in your best ‘cross mum’ voice, and send them inside each time, explaining why. 8yo is old enough to be sent packing if ‘they can’t play nicely with others’ in a community space. Raising the ‘awkward factor’ for the neighbour (and her friends) isn’t a bad thing.

Yes, I’m ‘That Mum’.

SkittlesandBeer Thank you. This is really helpful. I think I've entered the 'really fucking angry' stage now. I'm angry that this has happened to my children, and I am angry that it has come to this. I have also spent all day feeling quite sick at the thought that this girl could be experiencing something horrible. Her family are genuinely lovely people and I've never felt weirded out or suspicious of anything. Not that you necessarily would I suppose.

I'm not sure I could dictate the girl's punishment? I can certainly tell her that the kids will be playing in the back garden for a while and not coming out. We are actually going away very soon for a few consecutive short breaks so won't be around much.

I can certainly up the supervision, that is not a problem, but I think a break would send a more clear message.

Thank you all for helping me.

In obviously don’t speak for all autistic children but my 5 yo son has HFA and whilst very curious about the body and having issues with boundaries, he does stop behaviours when asked and would not engage in the more sexualised touching as you described.

It would be more ‘can I see... how does it work... what does it do’ and if you asked him why he was trying to look he’d tell you he wanted to know about it without embarrassment.

Just a few months ago he and his female friend showed each other their gentials (great) but it was a very factual exercise and he saw no shame (as he shouldn’t) and told me without prompting. When I explained that we keep privates private and made a ‘rule’ he got it and was fine.

The behaviour of the girl is concerning to me. It shows signs of inappropriate sexualisation and I think warrants a call to NSPCC for advice.

I remember your other thread. Even without this latest incident, I think you should ban this child from playing with your children. She's badly behaved, obnoxious, and her mother just lets her get away with it. This is not someone I'd want around my children.

I think they all go to the same school? If so, there's probably not much you can do about them playing together there. But at home, I'd make it crystal clear that she is not allowed anywhere near your house or children as she's too badly behaved and her mother won't do anything about it.

I am glad you are starting to feel angry - you really should! Your poor little boy, she has really been bullying him. First with the shoes, and making him lie to you, and now this. I really feel sorry for him.

You mentioned he was much younger, it’s really not fair on him to be on the receiving end of this older child’s abuse just because she might have ASD. It sends an awful message to him that he isn’t worth protecting.

Op, be careful your children do not see being kept in the garden as a punishment for what this girl has done to them. They will never tell you again if anything happens if they think that you will stop them playing out etc because of it. Young children will not understand why you are doing it, will just see it as a punishment.
If this girl is at the same school I don't see that you have a choice but to inform the school. You cannot allow your children to be alone with this child for a second.
You really cannot make the decision on why she has these behaviours based on the parents seeming nice. Most paedophiles seem nice, thats how they groom their victims and convince their victims families to allow them access to the victim. It could be an uncle, a cousin, a family friend rather than a parent.
She has touched your children and despite being spoken to, has continued to try and do so. Even if it is just curiosity how much more curious is she going to get? It may not just be your children she is touching? She clearly will not be told NO, by her parents or her victim, it seems unlikely she will just stop this without some serious intervention.
I cannot reiterate enough OP it will only take 10 seconds and curiosity to go too far and your child could be hurt or having a lifetime of counselling.

Her family are genuinely lovely people

No, they're not.

Genuinely lovely people don't allow their child/ren to bully others, as this girl has done to your children. If they were genuinely lovely people, they'd take steps to stop their child behaving so badly that other children (ie. yours) don't want to play with them.

More importantly, they wouldn't blame the victims when it's THEIR child at fault.

I’d be just as hard on my asd child about this as I would my non asd child. She needs to parent her.
You need to speak to the nspcc, it’s not fair on your children or the girl.

I'd be equally stressed about speaking to the mother OP.

If you watch them when they're playing outside and the mother wasn't doing that then you'd be the only adult there, right? In that case maybe it would be easier to tell the daughter to stop (easier than the thought of telling another child off?). If it were me I'd be thinking of saying something like "X stop trying to touch Jane's vulva." "X stop trying to see Johnny's penis." Followed by "Those are private areas." With a warning that you'll send her home next time.

That way you'd been open about what she's trying to do, not added a layer of mystery about it and you're not afraid of literally naming her actions.

I think I remember another thread of yours about this girl. If so, it sounded like the mother was kind of leaning in a ASD diagnosis to relieve her of parenting duties.

One thing I hate about the impacts of abuse of children (all types) is that it makes it hard to know what's actually ok as a parent because we're second guessing ourselves: "Am I over sensitive because of my own history and then being unfair to my kids, or is this actually wrong?" type of thoughts. I can't answer that myself in this situation. However, everybody else has! And I think of how my kids are reacting to something and the ages involved. Here you've got the age difference PLUS her ignoring the repeated No. That she's not hearing/paying attention to someone's boundary, whatever context it is, is also something that should be raised with her mother....

Should add the warning to send her in would be once and not per play time. It would be if this ever happens again.

You must protect your children.

Go to the Mum again and tell her that her daughter cannot play with your children full stop. Tell her what happened. Tell her it goes beyond pushing boundaries. It is not normal. She can play it down if she likes but your children must no it is not ok to be touched like this. You have total control about who plays with your children. Do not allow this to continue.

I would have real concerns about this child. I would be speaking to NSPCC

Something very similar happened to my DS when he was 3. He'd been playing in our back garden and was enticed over the fence into next door's. I was horrified when he told me what had happened. . The mother (of the much older boy) didn't believe me when I told her. I didn't want to make it worse for Ds by involving the police so I forbade him from playing in the garden and put the house up for sale.

Thank you, thank you. I knew I would get sensible replies on here. My DH is great but like me, he tends to minimise stuff.

I feel a lot more confident today but really challenged as it’s going to be really hard to keep them apart. They’ve played together a lot and live literally metres away. Same school, same school run. It’s a really small community in the country.

I’ve asked MN to delete as I had a bit of a panic last night but perhaps I’ll leave it here.

Logically speaking, if you can’t supervise them together then you’ll have to stop her from seeing your kids - for your children’s benefit of course. Even if she lives close by and it’s a small community, you’ll have to tell her mother that she is not allowed over anymore and reinforce this if she comes over

I'd be protecting my DD no matter what. Play outside but I'm there or don't play outside at all.

I may get flamed for this and I apologise if this offends but I feel very strongly but your children’s right not to be touched on the privates trumps any SEN or ASD issues around not having boundaries In my opinion.

The reason this isn't ok is because your children say it isn't. Yes some children play and touch and experiment. That's fine. It's not fine when one is saying No.

The other mum needs to respect your children

How are you doing op? How did it go with her mum?

Hi

I did ask for this thread to be deleted as I was concerned by the amount of detail and it is all quite sensitive, but I'm feeling wobbly again about what I should be doing.

I went out for most of the day with my kids just to get out. I explained to them that I did not want them to play with their friend for a while until I had thought things through.

We came home and my kids went out to play. I could see the family weren't home. Poor timing as they arrived home immediately. Dd came in, my son informed X (I've decided X is how I will refer to the child) that 'We are not allowed to play with you anymore' (!)
Not how I wanted to handle it at all! I called him in and closed the door.

Anyone care to guess what happened next?

Bet the Mum came round!

Mum came round and dismissed it as an ‘accident’??
If that happened I hope you went nuclear.