I keep ending up in a rage with MIL - how do I cope?

[ZaphodBeeblerox]

I've had a previous thread on her about my MIL and had some useful suggestions on here which I attempted to use. Just a short recap : MIL and I have a fairly difficult relationship. She's widowed and lives on her own in south asia where both my husband and I are originally from. She visits for 4-6 weeks at a time, and in previous years (when I was in fulltime work) it was fine for the most part. In the past two years however, her visits have been timed around me being on mat leave. This year she's obviously here to see her first grandchild; last year she came when I was on leave after suffering a loss at term. Both visits have been excruciating. I have PND and postnatal anxiety and am getting some help for it (but she doesn't know about the diagnosis I think). There are a number of different issues - her sexist views (expecting me to pick up after her but her son not to have to lift a finger), her habit of saying thoughtless hurtful things under the excuse of "I didn't mean it" and so on. Most recently we've ended up having a massive fight nearly every few weeks which has not ended well.

I love my husband and he's a good egg. However, I'm realising he has trouble drawing boundaries with his family because of the way they react if anyone calls them out on it. Following my therapists suggestion that I replace my aggression with assertiveness, I tried most recently when she annoyed me to just address the issue in the moment. When playing with the baby, as soon as my husband left the room she asks DS (8 mos old) "Oh is mummy not smiling at you".. this is after previous instances where she keeps saying things like "Oh is mummy ignoring you.. are you sad mummy's not picking you up" etc. She always plays innocent when I call her out on it, and says its just a "cultural thing", and I'm being petty and oversensitive. And my DH at the end of his patience with these repeated fights just asks me why I need to fight every statement rather than letting it go. My issue is that I feel certain she'll repeat statements like these to my child when he's older and make me feel worse about leaving him in childcare 9-5 so I can work. And I think the cultural issue is bs cover for piling onto my guilt. Its funny how none of these cultural memes involve guilting the dad or making fun of the dad in any way.

Anyway, she lost it and basically refused to come visit us any more and said her son can just come visit her if he wants. Essentially cutting off the only grandchild she has because I said she needs to watch what she says in front of him. Clearly there's more of a backstory - this isn't by far the vilest thing she's said but don't want to make the OP longer than it is. I then caved and spoke to her in a conciliatory (although not apologetic) manner just to stop her from going NC because the person who'll be hurt by this is my husband. And if he sees us being close to my family (who are very kind and bend over backwards to help us out) but not speaking to his family (who make v little effort), he'll feel bad.

So how do I cope with being made to feel like a mug. Having processed this over the past few days I feel like she's just using her victimhood as a way to get me to toe the line so I'll be scared to ever point out her faults in the future. And she's perpetuating this trope that I am the bad person. Essentially whatever I do, she only remembers the bad things; whereas if I point out anything hurtful she's said or done then I've misunderstood or I'm lying.

I'm looking for some insights into how to handle her behaviour without cutting her off; how to cope internally with her toxicity; and generally how people manage without going NC. Sorry for the very long OP!

No advice I'm afraid, but she sounds like a nightmare!

Repeat what she says parrot fashion

'Is he sad because mother is ignoring him?'

'Is he sad because mummy won't pick him up?'

Let her hear what that sounds like and the emphasis is now on her to explain what she means - it's a good tool and works wonders

I don’t think you can handle her behaviour. You’ve tried discussing it with her but she ignores or dismisses what you say. Your partner doesn’t stick up for you and instead blames you for being upset when she’s being nasty to you. I agree you can’t allow anyone to talk to you like that in front on your child. You need to keep any contact to an absolute minimum. Sorry OP, it’s an awful position to be in. X

Eeesh.

At least she lives on the other side of the world, I guess?

Sorry, I know that doesn't help you in the here and now.

Your husband needs to step up and tell her when she has crossed the line.

To be fair my partner usually does stick up for me. It's just that all her previous statements are timed such that he isn't in the room (whether this is maliciously deliberate or just unconscious in that she feels like being snide when he isn't around I'm not sure). So he relies on me repeating it to him, and then brings it up later. But she flat out denies saying it, so he's left with thinking the truth is somewhere in the middle. In this particular instance he just felt a bit frustrated because it was our last day with her and if we could have left without yet another fight it would have been great, so could I not have saved my angryfeministrant for another occasion.

But him sticking up for me just results in her completely denying it, or insinuating that I am lying and/or completely misunderstanding her, and her bemoaning the fact that she has to be "soooo careful around Zaphod".

To be clear, these aren't minor things. The day I lost my child in a stillbirth she called us in the hospital and told me "I spoke to my brother (a doctor) and he said some women just refuse c-sections for no good reason". To me that came across as her blaming me for the stillbirth. And it still obviously hurts deeply since I did spend months going over every second of that day to see if I could have changed something. Each time these sorts of things are raised she just plays this poor victim and says with such vehemence that she never said/meant these things that DH is just trained to placate her and say "ok, she's got the message, won't happen again".

That's a nice strategy GreenTulips - puts the onus back on her to explain herself and hopefully she can hear how ridiculous she sounds.

I think you have to let her flounce off. She’ll either then have to back down, or your DH will have to actually address her appalling attitude to you, and stop insisting you let it go. I think things can only improve if HE redraws the boundaries so they include respect for you as wife and mother.

You’re right, being conciliatory now will just invite her to hold the threat of cutting contact over your head.

Everytime she says something hurtful, or belittling say

“oh granny’s being a bitch” in a sing song tone to your baby!

She’ll soon stop. If she calls you out say you never said that/ she misheard or/ she’s lying.

Just turn it round on her.

She sounds very narcissistic and you’d all be better off going NC.

Whatever you do don’t get upset in front of her- that’s a win for her! It’s what she craves!

No reasoning with people like this, just leave them be on their own.

To be clear, these aren't minor things. The day I lost my child in a stillbirth she called us in the hospital and told me "I spoke to my brother (a doctor) and he said some women just refuse c-sections for no good reason".

That is NOT OK!!

How are you having a fight with her every few weeks when she's not here that often? Is this when you speak to her on the phone/video call?

Did your therapist give you an example of assertiveness rather than agression? Because while I can see that what your MIL says is annoying, at 8 months the only thing your DS will understand in that is 'mummy' which will probably make him smile at you, not her

Having just seen your update (cross post) I would absolutely let her flounce off and hope she goes NC. That’s atrocious, you poor thing.

So sorry for your loss

Even if she is unaware of your diagnosis, commenting on you not smiling or being miserable when you have pnd is fucking shit.

I’m so sorry. I have no advice. I could not read without replying though - you have been through so much. Congratulations on your ds. Not specifically mil related but i would try not to worry about feeling guilty when you go back to work, or what other people will think or say about it. You have enough on your plate in the here and now, it sounds like.

Let her flounce.

You and your ds will genuinely be better off without such a vile specimen in your lives.

As for dh - let him do what he wants. If he wants to see her then fine, but you don’t have to.

How are you having a fight with her every few weeks when she's not here that often? Is this when you speak to her on the phone/video call?

No - I avoid all phone calls / video chats etc with her; have done so since last year. I let DH and the baby get on with it. She was here in April on her way to visit her other son, then back here in June, then off on a holiday with friends then back here in July. So about 5 weeks in total but spread out over three months, and each visit has had 1-2 major blowups like this. Mostly linked to how I speak to her, my poor attitude and so on.

My husband has very many good qualities but one thing he struggles with is drawing boundaries with his family. He doesn't get much respect from them, so has trouble ensuring I do.

I think she'd be quite happy to flounce off and sit around thinking she's so sad and miserable all because of me. And frankly I can see that over the years my husband's childfree older sibling is also lowering contact with his mum for reasons I'm not privy too. I just don't want all the anger floating around to come centre on me - then it'll become a case of "Zaphod ruined everything and now Mum's all alone".

My current strategy is to say :
She is v welcome to visit. She can visit when my husband is at home and/or I am in FT work. So if he needs to use all his annual leave to entertain his mother that's his call. Or she can come for shorter periods. But I will not be left alone all day with her expected to entertain her and play happy families.

And with all else I will avoid firmly - so I'm going home (to my hometown) for a month before my mat leave ends, but not going to visit her since DH has no more AL left to join us; I don't and won't facilitate video calls with the baby etc. That's all up to my husband and he can handle this. Earlier I felt guilty at how asymmetrical the relationships are between DS and my family and my husband's. But it's their call to be unpleasant to me, so I won't stand in the way of them having a relationship with the baby but I don't want to keep bending over backwards to facilitate it.

I get that DS won't understand anything now - it's clearly obviously directed at me, because if you want to talk to him you'd get a better response saying gagagoogoo. I just don't feel like sitting there listening to this rubbish which makes me worry and miserable about whether I'm doing enough for DS and whether he'd be better off without me. All my anxiety and worry is coming from my PND I know, and I'm getting help for it, and I know I'm doing a decent job with DS; he's a lovely happy baby and seems to be ticking along well and I laugh loads when I'm with him.

You're a better person than me, after that C-section comment I would never have acknowledged her existence again, let alone host her in my house.

Your husband is caught up in the FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) that his mother has raised him with. He needs to get onside with you and present a united front to his mother. Otherwise his appeasement of her will never end and you will always be the bad guy.

Good luck

As per above. You're far nicer than I would be. Think your proposed strategy is extremely fair. Have nothing to do with her. Really sorry you're having to deal with her on top of your other challenges.

Bloody hell I don't think I could have her stay again. She sounds really horrible.

I think her rambling rubbish following the stillbirth may have been said in a haze of grief. She also once told me how in her culture women who’ve lost a firstborn are uniquely cursed. She herself had a miscarriage but was at pains to point out this wasn’t her first child but a second child who she lost in the MC, not like me (who presumably was irresponsible enough to lose baby #1 hence cursed.)

Again it was said in this stream of consciousness fashion and when I brought it up with her later she completely denied it. I then asked her how I’d know anything about her miscarriage or her mother’s miscarriage if she hadn’t told me this, and she said then she must have said it in a v different context and meant it differently. It’s hard to pin her down because she just then starts talking to my husband playing the victim and saying I’ll just go away. Or “oh I need to be so careful of what I say”.. I mean.... it’s not hard is it? Don’t say vile hurtful things, that’s all. Just chat about how cute the baby is, how bad our cricket team is, how messed up politics is and then leave.

I’m going to look up FOG.

I think you've been remarkably tolerant so far. She could have learned from previous experience that these behaviours are unwelcome, but she has chosen not to adjust her approach to be more respectful of you. This isn't an accident: it's a choice that she feels entitled to make.

I agree with previous posters about your husband's fear, obligation and guilt. This is why he doesn't defend you properly. He needs to develop an understanding of the dynamics of his family of origin and stand up for you and his child.

As for you: don't be tempted to placate your MIL. Let her say whatever she's going to say. It's on her, not you. There is nothing you can do to make her behave like a reasonable person, so don't tie yourself in knots trying. Keep your boundaries firm.

I think I'd quietly record her, just so I'd have a bit of evidence on my side.
Dh, how would you feel if someone said that to you, awful but she said she didn't...

I am South Asian and I can really relate to you.

My mil is very similar, tbh I just do what I want and don't care anymore. No matter what you do she will talk.

Do what you want (trust me it's amazing).

Someone’s “Culture” doesn’t give them free reign to be an arsehole.

I have a good relationship with MIL & FIL but I feel that’s because I set boundaries very early on...
FIL told me 2 mins after meeting him to “make me a cup of tea”
I lead him to the kitchen and showed him where the kettle was.
MIL once said that it’s a big disappointment to her that her son (my husband) didn’t marry someone who was house proud (I worked 45 hour weeks so we shared house duties from beginning and always have - husband took some time to get used to it but that’s life.
I told her I wasn’t raised to run about after a man and that husband is perfectly capable of looking after himself.

Regardless of their beleifs and opinions, NO ONE has the right to be an arsehole.

Get her told or you’ll always have the same issue.... x

I think you've handled her pretty well so far, and her flounce is evidence that she senses she may not be a match for you. FWIW, I think her behaviour has been appalling, so I think you should take care not to excuse it as things said 'in the haze of grief' or imagine it's not meant maliciously etc. I think she is completely aware of how nasty she is being.

I think you should attend to things on another front, though, which is to tackle the issue of your DH's attitude. He needs to face up to the way she's treating you instead of choosing to see it as a personality clash that you're partially responsible for. Does he know all of the things she's said, about being cursed, for instance? He really needs to wake up to how unacceptable this is - in any culture. You said you have a therapist, so I wonder whether he'd be willing to join you in sessions and maybe develop some insight into his relationship with her and her relationship with everybody else.

It's nice that you're concerned with your DH and DS having a satisfactory relationship with her, but I think until she can behave more acceptably you might be better off keeping her at arm's length and completely refusing to shoulder any of the blame for that.

I am so sorry for the loss of your baby.

I'm so sorry for your loss and for having to tolerate such a horrid woman. Your MIL is a burden on your family. Let her flounce away. You don't deserve all this.

I feel for you.

You are making the situation worse by not letting it resolve itself.

Her not visiting you but DH and DS visiting her was a bloody good option. She'd never have stuck to it though. It was a ploy to make you cave. Which you did . Why do you want your child to have a relationship with a nasty nasty person? Don't enable it!

As for worrying that they will all blame you for her being alone because you were the last to cut her off, well, that's daft. What if they do say that? Ignore it. Besides they all know what she's like. As I say to my cousin about my mother, if you are that worried about her being alone, you could spend more time with her no way he ever would

Stop blocking your own successful moves to protect yourself.

You know it can be terribly liberating to embrace being the bad guy.

I do this with my family. I thought it would end my family relationships if I embraced my bad guyness: giving no shits who wailed and cried and whichever flying monkeys tried to guilt trip me. I was wrong. I am NC with the loons but still close to the normals and they seek me out for the brutal advice. It is a much better way of living. I know the loons bitch and moan about what a big meanie I am. I give no fucks. In fact I now am pleased, no guilt at all, because they only get like that when blocked from being total dicks.

My children know why they barely see that grandma. It is healthy for them to know and to understand the art of not pandering to tantrums.