To think a lot of people are jealous of teachers' holidays but...

[Pengggwn]

...too bitter about it to admit that they wouldn't be teachers themselves?

Just that really.

I have seen so many comments and threads aimed at dissecting teachers' pay and conditions to a forensic level, people complaining that teachers are available over the summer to answer their queries, people arguing that teachers should be working anyway or claim to be working even when they're not (I'm not, at least not for the next month).

And yet, we are in the middle of a teacher recruitment and retention crisis. We can't recruit and keep well-qualified teachers.

Where are all the volunteers??

Is it too early for a mojito?

NEVER!

It is NEVER too early for a mojito, Sacha

To the teachers saying that their salary is based on 195 days of working - isn't there a legal requirement to get 25 days of paid holiday? So shouldn't you get paid 220 x the daily rate not 195? Or do they justify it by saying that 13 weeks unpaid is as good as 5 paid?

@catinboots9 which is why my post states that many jobs are stressful. This is a post about teachers' holidays hence why I explained my reasons for needing them and how intense working with vulnerable people as a teacher/nurse/carer is the part a lot of people misunderstand.

Comparing teaching to working in a supermarket or being an accountant is a bit weird. Everyone would like six weeks off but their jobs don't have that. But they do have flexibility - if someone wants six weeks off then they should train to be a teacher as that seems to be the only thing some people think teaching is about!

Farmers and childminders have responsibilities too - farmers would love six weeks off but make the choice to farm knowing that is not going to happen. I chose to be a teacher but not because of the holidays. I need the holidays to be a great teacher. It is intense. Not many farmers or accountants have kids disclosing sexual abuse to them.

That luck doesn’t appear to be sufficient to recruit and retain teachers though, does it? It’s a head scratcher given how lucky teachers are that more than one in ten secondary teachers quit teaching last year.

This. ^^

Not sure on the intricacies hundred.
Essentially (when you strio back all the quibbling), teachers have a salary. That salary reflects the fact that we are contracted to work 190 days term time plus 5 days inset. There's a directed time budget which accounts for meetings, open evenings etc. As part of being a profession, some work will, quite reasonably, have to be done outside of directed hours. Our holidays are outside of term time.
The pay reflects the package (just like in my pre teaching role, one of my posts had a training package and another friend her pay set up accounts for living costs and a car overseas).

If we had to be available to work more than term time then the salary would have to go up.

To me, doing my own preparation isn't 'unpaid overtime' as some teachers say. I would say that SLTs who direct outside of directed time are enforcing unpaid overtime & the same for staff being pushed into endless after school interventions, saturday morning sessions, unpaid holiday sessions.

I never begrudge going into school to sort my room and prep over the summer & I'm happy to do paid revision sessions over the holidays as long as they remain optional. I would have huge issues with being given tasks to do over the holidays or being expected to do revision sessions.

Does that make sense or have I rambled a bit?

I agree with you MaisyPops, particularly that teachers seem to be fair game for uninformed opinion. A public sector thing I suppose, but it does feel a bit like me (a teacher) saying how I think software engineers or marketing officers should work and what their annual leave entitlement should be.

However I don’t think it’s necessary to argue that teachers ‘deserve’ the holidays. I guess that’s the kind of thing that gets some people’s backs up. We get the holidays because the kids get them and without the kids there’s no work to do. Not as a reward for our work, just a statutory part of the job, which is beyond our control and could be changed at any given point.
I’m not too concerned about whether anyone outside my workplace thinks I work hard or deserve my holidays or not. I just get them and there it is.

zzzzz

I have never said anything like that about SAHMs.

redcarbluecar
I meant deserve as in 'that's our package and we are entitled to our package'.

Jobs come with packages attached.

One of my friends works full time across 4 days and does compressed hours to have time with her kids. She deserves that day off.
Another friend has some flexible working which makes it easy to fit around caring commitments. She deserves that.

I'm not going to complain that I can't get compressed hours because it doesn't work for the package I've signed up for. Equally, people who opt have an all year job vs a term time one can't complain at how unfair our holidays are.

I was a primary school teacher and left shortly after qualifying. Went into learning and development. Within several years hit 45k, delivering lessons a few times a week, no planning, just updating material as and when but this was done as a team, yes had data etc to input but that only took around 3 hours a week. Worked from home anything from 1-5 times a week. 35 days annual leave plus all bank holidays. Was able to move things to go to all school sports days, parents evenings, assemblies etc.

Never ever would I consider teaching in a school again. I love the teaching aspect. I've got to use my skills else where, for better pay and way less admin!!

I don’t think supermarket working, accountants or childminders have as stressful job as teaching no. I’ve done two of these jobs. Sitting at the till or taking a couple of kids to the park, pouring through ledgers, does not compare.

Nursing, social work, special needs, police officers, doctors yes just as stressful as teaching and can be more so. I’ve done two of these.

However I’ve also negotiated with an employer to work term time only, not teaching, so don’t complain!

I still don’t begrudge teachers. Honestly I think we’ve a teaching crisis, it’s not a favoured profession to get into for a reason. And my friends who are teachers say they are ready to leave. We are losing people and not recruiting.

Support our teachers! Stop griping!

However, I also think that some teachers do rub people up the wrong way because they fail to understand that other people also work unpaid overtime, also work under immense pressure etc. I find that a lot of people who are teachers come from families where they are also married to teachers, friends with teachers, have siblings who are teachers etc and it can become a bit of a bubble and they genuinely aren't all that aware of what goes on in other work places and they sound like some sort of idyll where people have no stress or long hours.

This. I have heard teachers say talk about other jobs as if in all of them you can get a coffee when you want, never take work home, etc. When in reality before I have even got my coat off I have had people coming to me with urgent issues that need resolved. This is not all teachers, but some do have an unrealistic view of other jobs. I actually worked with someone who became a teacher and said it was way better than the job we had both been doing.

I am not jealous of teachers, I chose not to be one, and would hate to have enforced summers off when everywhere you go is full of children on holiday after being with them for most of the year.

The truth is there are a lot of shit jobs out there that are not well paid for the level of responsibilities and expertise, and a lot of shit employers. I am not advocating a race to the bottom, I want everyone to idea;lly have great employers. But the reality is work is shit for a lot of people.

Don't look at us for the minutia, Hundred . It all makes sense to the legal bods and HR experts. 195 days is what we are paid for! They keep 1/195th if we take a strike day.

After that I would guess that there is all sorts of legal finagling to make it so... or "It's always been like that!"

Oh, and we aren't 'saying it' that is how it is! I appreciate you probably didn't mean to make it sound accusatory! But on a thread like this.... I tend to be a little more defensive

www.teachers.org.uk/files/Workload-A5-7037.pdf

Page 7 - and if you can wrap your head around it all you'll get an A*!

What I don't enjoy is people thinking they're bloody experts in my job, weighing in with their take on my pay and conditions

Permanent teachers in England and Wales are paid an annual salary accruing at a daily rate. They are paid for every day of the calendar year because every day is a potential work day, during which they may choose to work such reasonable additional hours as is necessary to carry out their professional duties.

So, yes, they are paid for the holidays but they cannot be directed/told what to do during that time - they use their professional judgment to do such work as is necessary, at a time of their choosing.

Temporary teachers, teachers on a fixed term contract, supply teachers and support staff are generally not paid for the summer holidays. As was pointed out yesterday, the senior leadership team have to work outside directed hours.

195 days is what we are paid for! They keep 1/195th if we take a strike day

No, the Burgundy Book says 1/365th, as does the Supreme Court. Do you work for a Sixth Form college instead? Since the court ruling last year, I think you are now entitled to claim the excess money back if you were deducted 1/195th.

The truth is there are a lot of shit jobs out there that are not well paid for the level of responsibilities and expertise, and a lot of shit employers. I am not advocating a race to the bottom, I want everyone to idea;lly have great employers. But the reality is work is shit for a lot of people

Of course. But you don't see people bitching about other professions and their terms and conditions, when those other professions are in crisis mode. At least, you certainly don't see it as much.

It may acrew daily, but we are paid for working term time + 5 days. So if term time increased then our pay would have to go up to reflect the increased working hours.

We aren't sitting around being paid to be on holiday. Our pay reflects our package.

Based on your idea of every day is a potential working day, when do we actually have holiday that isn't a potential working day?

I've been a SAHM for 10 years - I live in a nice house in a nice area and send 2dc to private schools - so, no I'm not jealous of teachers' holidays. Some of my close friends and female relations are teachers - I look forward to spending time with them in the holidays, especially if their dc are friends with my dc.

I was a teacher and my DH worked in the city (we're both retired now). For many years I endured DH's colleagues making very patronising comments about teaching, so easy, so much holiday, what a doss etc.
Shortly before he retired one of DH's colleagues left to become a maths teacher because he though it would be less stressful. He didn't even last half a term. I thoroughly enjoyed hearing my DH say to him on the phone, "my wife says you're a lightweight"

Haven't read the whole thread but I think teachers deserve every single day of their holidays. I'm not a teacher btw - just a grateful parent!

Since the court ruling last year, I think you are now entitled to claim the excess money back if you were deducted 1/195th. Happily I 'retired' 4 years ago but it was deducted at 1/195th. And yes I was in FE.

I wonder how many people know about that ruling? I would have being in a union... many FE colleges "don't recognise" unions, so many staff simply don't join.

But, like Maisy, I think yuor explanation isn't quite it... which just shows how complicated they make it... wonder why?

It may acrew daily, but we are paid for working term time + 5 days

No!
You are also paid to undertake such additional hours as is necessary to carry out your professional duties. There are no minimum or maximum number of hours set for you to carry out these duties - you use your professional judgment to decide how much extra work you need to do outside of directed time - which, unsurprisingly is known as 'undirected time.' Your daily rate of pay also includes an element of holiday pay.

I could never be a teacher, explaining something over and over again would drive me insane. Thank God, I have clever children.

It's a question of does 'pay acrews daily based on a contract of 195 days' equal 'teachers are paid for being on holiday'?
I think not.
Equally, holiday is not a potential working day in any line of work I've been in (including salaried work & flexi time). When I was flexitime I could work 7 days if I wanted or I could compress my hours, but I wouldn't have said I was paid on my days off just because I could have opted to so some work.

The poster suggesting our holidays are paid holidays has been going thread to thread this week intent on presenting the idea of 13 weeks being paid on holiday.

Please someone switch to correct spelling: accrue!!