To think a lot of people are jealous of teachers' holidays but...

[Pengggwn]

...too bitter about it to admit that they wouldn't be teachers themselves?

Just that really.

I have seen so many comments and threads aimed at dissecting teachers' pay and conditions to a forensic level, people complaining that teachers are available over the summer to answer their queries, people arguing that teachers should be working anyway or claim to be working even when they're not (I'm not, at least not for the next month).

And yet, we are in the middle of a teacher recruitment and retention crisis. We can't recruit and keep well-qualified teachers.

Where are all the volunteers??

Well said Raven. I teach lots of bottom sets because I can but if I was paid by results I'd go for the top sets and leave my lot to someone else. I have 12 in my year 11 class next year and the issues they have to deal with outside school would turn you grey. If I manage to get them any kind of GCSE I will feel proud - but if you pay me for what they 'should' then I'd get nothing. Performance related pay is all well and good if you have some control over the target - I don't .

Oh and I havre classes of 34 next year.

mumsneedwine that's exactly it. I have no issues with targets but have some respect for the fact these children may have horrid things happen.

Was shocked a couple of years ago when a child receiving treatment through CAMHS did not qualify for special dispensation for KS2 SATS yet a boy who had hurt his finger did. No wonder we have MH issues in schools. Targets should be within grasp at least. It's not my fault if child d has 6 weeks off travelling - but I'm expected to get said child to a certain level without excuses.

I have lots of teacher friends and I do laugh when they moan about targets and being measured - errr yeah it’s shit but unfortunately that’s how work works

Not really. What other sector measures your performance on the performance of 32 other people? Accountability is essential but the situation we are now in is measuring my ability to spoon feed the correct info into my exam classes. The Progress 8 measure means we are not only concerned with the boarder line students but also need to spend time chasing a grade 9 predicted student currently working at grade 8, not to mention those who’s parents have told them my subject doesn’t matter and to focus on only those that do.

I had a student last year who failed both my subject and another. Her other teacher and I were well aware we were pulling her in two directions, leaving her without the mental,space to focus on either. Neither of us could afford to be seen to let her go. What would have been best for her is to have been allowed to work with one of us and pass one rather than fail both.

@Olenna, but you don't, as a customer service person have 25 or more on one line simultaneously, all wanting to know different things. The clever ones who've done the work want hacks to do the work even faster, and the slowcoaches are begging for another explanation of the basic method. Plus three or four, who are able but distracted, who were staring out the window or texting during your carefully planned and timed explanation want you to go through it all again. And Mr Normal is fine but can't do the harder ones without teacher intervention.

Honestly, it's not the same as adult work.

I dont begrudge teachers the holidays..I wouldn't do their job , but I also think they aren't the only ones who have to work over their contracted hours and have a stressful job. Loads of us do.

I’ve also been surprised about the issues that have been raised re the introduction of performance related pay. Ummm...welcome to the real world where any pay increase is based on effort and outcome not simply on being in the job for another year.

In industry if something isn't to standard when it comes through the door It gets sent back. All materials are sourced to get the best results within the specification given to the workers by the company.

In a school you get what you get. Even in a set class their is differentiation to levels, SEND and frankly anything that can happen from puberty, through relationships, family issues to what the children watched on tv and how long their parents allowed them to stay up.
From this selection of materials teachers are supposed to get factorised results based on a test that took place 5 years previously. And it has nothing to do with the effort put in to a class.

Anyone that says basing schools on industry standards is a good idea an idiot.

PRP is the norm in many many sectors, not just in industry. We don’t all make rivets yet we manage to apply PRP sensibly against objectives which can be personalised as much as necessary.

And yes there are many people whose PRP will depend on the performance/outcome of 30+ people...managers, team leaders etc.

Even in local authorities the old basis of incremental pay increases is long gone (and rightly so) so I’m not sure why it shouldn’t sensibly be applied in teaching too.

Because the inputs don't come standardised, Dorset?

If a kid doesn't give a stuff, refuses to do homework or revision and gets crap results (in spite of constant interventions by the teacher), why should the teacher's pay be affected?

Just seen these on Facebook.

Because adults usually try their best and can be sanctioned if they don't. Like I could fire them if they are failing. With Kids I can't, I don't have the luxury of telling my year 11s that I will be making them do overtime if they continue to fail. I can't over ride their home lives that impact so hugely on their school lives.
I understand PRP as was an HR manager for many years. And it does not not fit teaching.
My targets have been set when kids were 11. They are now 15 and some have lived more of a life than I ever will.

I’m sat here drinking wine and pondering my life choices...
I’ve been reading a lot of these threads and it’s making me think twice lol.
At the moment I am a nurse working with adults with profound and multiple learning disabilities, neurological conditions and acquired brain injury. I have worked in multiple areas with those with challenging needs (and behaviours) and complex needs. I have enjoyed my job, it’s hard, the pay could be bettter, the hours are long whilst working and longer with unpaid cpd that needs doing to prove I should be in post. I earn no more than a teacher. Something from this job role has been missing for a number of years.
I’m making a career change into teaching (primary and SEND specialim). I hope I’m making the right decision. I’m looking forward to the time with students. Is this realistic? Or am I going to feel just as buried under paper?
Someone tell me it’s fabulous....

And I love London Underground. Although have to use it tomorrow for a meeting and I'm dreading the 100 degree heat. Don't miss commuting

Yeah I echo the people on here who have been pointing out teachers are often moaning about working extra hours and performance related pay as if such things were unique to teaching. I work in the city - my contact officially gives 9-5 as my working hours, I work till the wee hours often. I often work on my days off and holidays. That’s modern working life. Also it’s challenging to manage performance in most if not all roles but we give it a shot. Why should teachers be unique?

Misty it's awesome. Kids are fantastic - exhausting, infuriating, funny, chaotic, moody but awesome. You will love it. Just keep a sense of humour and avoid parents at all costs 😂😂😂

Dorsetdays

And yes there are many people whose PRP will depend on the performance/outcome of 30+ people...managers, team leaders etc.

Yes there are and if one of those isn't working they get put on competency or even fired.

If a pupil isn't working, then the teacher -no matter the effort that they put in- is to blame.

Even in local authorities the old basis of incremental pay increases is long gone (and rightly so) so I’m not sure why it shouldn’t sensibly be applied in teaching too.

I don't have a problem as such with PRP. I have a problem with it in its current form as the final results are not an indication of how much effort the teacher puts in.

So the question that never gets answered is how do you sensibly apply PRP to teachers?

When I was at school, if a student underperformed in their exams, it was assumed to be the student's fault unless the teacher was incompetent. Putting the responsibility almost entirely on the teacher does a disservice to the teacher and the student. If kids know that the teacher will bend over backwards to drag them kicking and screaming through their exams, and that parents and senior leadership will blame the teacher, where's the motivation and responsibility of the student?

PRP isn't inherently wrong in teaching, but it is often based on completely unfair things (like target grades based on highly spurious data).

And, the inputs for a teacher average 30 hours teaching per week multiplied by 25 students per class, so 750 each week. All of whom have parents or guardians (usually two per child) who can take exception to what's happening. Not many professionals, even those working at the oxygen-free levels of government/sovereign debt/private practice encounter the same intensity. And don't forget, every parent is intervening for the sake of their darling child. The stakes are very

Working hours - yup. Suck it up as lots of jobs work long unpaid hours. But performance related pay is crap. I worked in the City for years and did 6-midnight many many times. But. I had control over what I produced and the results I could achieve. They were not dependent on 100s of teenagers who hate my subject and would rather be snogging in the Park.

zsazsajuju

Not one teacher has said that they are "unique".

What teachers say is that the job isn't what people think it is and has the same issues as many other jobs, and some quirks from yet more jobs and somethings don't work in there current format.

But then as someone who worked in industry before becoming a teacher I can happily say that anyone that says other people in whatever jobs don't do the same is lying .

XingMing. The inputs don’t come standardised in most jobs, I work in the third sector and trust me that’s most definitely the case yet PRP works well

PRP implemented properly isn’t purely outcome/target based, those are just some of the measures but there are also many other factors that can be taken into account.

And in most sectors if you don’t achieve the results you wouldn’t get any increase regardless of the reason.

PRP is a somewhat different issue to teacher holidays, though, isn't it?

I agree that the current PRP arrangements don't seem to be right for teachers, but maybe teachers could develop an alternative system?

And it's an awesome job. Just ran into one of my students on way home and got a 'hey miss you look sick'. I think that's a good thing 😎. I am a G.

Ha! Thank you mums I have a lot of experience of hiding from parents down already ! I’ve loved the experience days so far. Hopefully I can do this.