Why aren't farmers seen as scroungers?

[Cismyass]

If someone is in receipt of benefits they are seen as a scrounger and if their business doesn't make them minimum wage it is seen as unviable. When some farmers receive huge EU subsidies and make very little money themselves through actual farming why are they seen as any different?

Get £74 a week from the government and you're a scrounger, get thousands and you're an entrepreneur.

Speaking of which, the subsidy-hoovering (dysoning?) landowner James Dyson supports Brexit even though he'll lose his subsidies. Why? Because if farming sans subsidies is uneconomical then the price of farmland will crash and the likes of him can swoop in and buy it up on the cheap. (Not necessarily on the open market though, as the post-Brexit governent will need to be able to guarantee compensation to those who supported them, perhaps by confiscating land from indebted small farmers and calling it a bailout. The rest of us won't get a look in when it comes to buying assets cheaply.)

There's no bigger scrounger than a disaster capitalist.

My dad was a tenant farmer and his land was owned by a Lord but I am sure my dad used to get the subsidy and not the land owner. Perhaps things have changed since then.

Don't worry, OP. After Brilliant Brexit goes through, there'll be no more EU subsidies, UK consumers will have to pay realistic prices for all food. No more scroungers. Or obesity. Two birds with one stone, bonus!

Crinkle it's the land that gets a lot of the subsidies, milk quotas etc. They get allocated to the tenant farmers, but the decision on what will be made available is made on the land itself - I think it's tiered and depends on how the tenancy is set up, but, for example, if one area of land has been allocated X heads of dairy the the owner will be the one who makes the land statement and receives the allocations, which then get passed on (in whole or part, depending) on the subsidies in question.

Others, like CAP, are allocated to the individual farmers.

It may well have changed again, it has been about 4 years since I 2nd read various Aggie papers

OP maybe you would prefer farmers who own their land to sell it to developers, make themselves rich, stop producing any local food and you can buy genetically modified crap which has been flown thousands of miles for five times the price you pay now?

Sorry to go off topic but I'm newish here what are about?

I thought they were flowers! Lol

Speaking of which, the subsidy-hoovering (dysoning?) landowner James Dyson supports Brexit even though he'll lose his subsidies. Why? Because if farming sans subsidies is uneconomical then the price of farmland will crash and the likes of him can swoop in and buy it up on the cheap. (Not necessarily on the open market though, as the post-Brexit governent will need to be able to guarantee compensation to those who supported them, perhaps by confiscating land from indebted small farmers and calling it a bailout. The rest of us won't get a look in when it comes to buying assets cheaply.)

James Dyson uses his farm business as a massive tax dodge to avoid paying taxes on the rest of his business enterprises. His farms run as a massive loss. HERE That doesn't happen because he's a "shit framer", it happens because he knows how to avoid paying tax.

Most farmers (and I am one) would like to see our businesses stand alone without the need for subsidy. But when the cost of production is so high in relation to produce, and everything relating to cost rises gets passed down the food chain to farmers who are at the bottom of the heap, it's not going to happen.

There needs to be a food revolution. Fair prices, reflecting cost of production need to be paid for farmers produce.

In answer to a PP - SFP/BPS Entitlements are held by a number of people. In our case, as AHA tenant farmers, we hold them for our own ground. But it is VERY common for a landowner to retain SFP/BPS entitlements instead of the person farming the rented ground. Places like the National Trust is very good at this - which is why they get so much money from subsidies - even though they rent out their ground.

Curious
Which is it? One post you claim to never know or love married farmers, another post you live in a farming community and work on farms.

The worst payers off all are farmers, especially to staff and other farmers, can't tell you how many times I lied to other people to say the cheques in the post, when you know it was never written in the first place.

The fun side, chasing heifers down Epping high street at 0330 on new year's day. Plucking 1000 turkeys, geese and ducks by hand( 5 of us) in build up to Christmas. Celebrating finish of stacking hay/straw bales, sheeting down silage pits at 0430, been up from 0430 previous day and go straight to milk cows when finished. young farmers etc
The shit side, nursing BSE cows through death, one you reared from birth, watching a field of straw burn out, watching as you poor 6500 litres of milk down the drain because you are over quota. Been told you can't have a day to attend your grannie's funeral, because tough shit we can't milk our own cows because we pay you to do it. You can't have afternoon off to collect your new born son. same reason. Sorry but you need to choose 25 cows to kill off, as we can't afford them. If you speak out or stand up for yourself, or the boss decides to sell up, you not only unemployed but homeless, because your house comes with the job. Watching owners pouring in antibiotic milk into public tanks after it has been tested. Been forced to put rubbish in trailers of grain, because your contract allows up to 7% scraps. Been hit and kicked, had shot gun stuck in my face by farmer who had a dispute with his brother, my boss. Not paid. Yes your right all farmers are the salt of the earth.

It's so easy to say farmers are nice, if they your friends, charity cohorts, your dad, mum or husband/wife. It's sadly a lie to many who have to work for them or deal with them from non farming communities

I came from a council estate background, of the 55 students I did my 2 courses with, 16 where non farmers, NON not one 20 years later is still in farming. Why? I wonder if all of you claim it so bloody good. Farming average age is over 55, in dairy its over 65, you don't have to see why, my inlaws, expect FIL are non farmers, we aren't farmers any more, and it is true for many new tenants too.

But all carry on believing farming is great, some are, Yes Ist in Paull, third in Stapleford take a bow, MIL I love you more than my own late mum, the rest are worse then Sports Direct and Amazon, remember who pays the illegal bast*rd gangmasters, farmers!

@Quiettiger thank you for the clarification. I think these sort of tax incentives such as Dyson's, and anything else that leads to land hoarding, are part of the problem in this country in that they distort the market and put up prices - not that unfettered markets are good for food security either of course. I think the idea of a land value tax has its merits, but if it were introduced here it would probably be made deliberately regressive, to price small farmers off their land and benefit the big landowners. I agree that we need a 'food revolution', although the one we'll probably get post-Brexit won't be the one most of us want.

user1471450935 - I'm not going to argue with any of your comments, because sadly, I can tell a huge number of similar stories of my own that match them.

What I will say in defence, however, is that there are also many decent farmers who treat their staff with consideration and respect, try to do the job properly and treat their livestock with respect and well. I'm very lucky that my DH & I run our farm together, so don't have to answer to other people, but the stories I have heard of the way staff are treated on other farms make my hair curl.

Similarly, we've experienced it in that we raise dairy heifers for a local 2000 head dairy farm. The farmer who owns that enterprise is known as being a complete cunt to his staff - he tried it with us once, because we supply him with a service, but I was in the very lucky position I could tell him where to go and so I did. He hasn't done it since.

Farming is an utterly brutal industry. It is certainly not "Adams Farm" off Countryfile - which incidentally, is total and utter bollocks. It is long hours, poorly paid, and a who host of other things which have DH & I not encouraging DD to have anything to do in the farming industry as she grows up, much as we "love" it.

As for subsidies making farmers scroungers (back to the OP) - it doesn't make them anymore scroungers than working people in receipt of Universal Credit or Tax Credits or other benefits given to working people.

No user I said (Oh, I am NOT, nor have I ever been, a farmer, married to a farmer or even just a little bit in love with one)

Never said I didn't know any, that would be a lie, as I have lived in rural, farming areas for most of my life!

I wonder if all of you claim it so bloody good. Ah! I don't think anybody has claimed that, have they? And I have agreed, I have known farmers whose life experience has led them to be bitter, brutal people. But I also know many who are not.

But all carry on believing farming is great, some are, Yes Ist in Paull, third in Stapleford take a bow, MIL I love you more than my own late mum, the rest are worse then Sports Direct and Amazon, remember who pays the illegal bastrd gangmasters, farmers!* Have a wee lie down.

Quiettiger
My BIL and Wife never joined farming, apart from being used as free family labour, I have helped BIL and his parents out since I was 16, before I married my wife, she was his annoying sister.

I must off done 10000 hours on that farm and got paid 3 bar meals, 100 bottles of Newcastle Brown Ale and since been married into too it, free meals. My MIL made a profit in 2 years, broke even once in 12 years. Not one of 4 grand kids will ever set foot on a farm.

Also the bulk of the wheat and barley grown in the UK is not for human consumption, it is either feed wheat or barley, and most is exported. We tried to grow bread wheat in Essex, failed 4 years out of 5, so wheat which cost us £125/tonne to grow, didn't meet contract was sold for £55/tonne. We could never grow malting barley and couldn't afford the loses.

Many world prices for farm gate produce is actually much lower than EU prices or subsidy levels. Why?
Because Germany and much of mainland Europe starved to death in 2 wars, EU subsidy is to stop that happening again, that's why OS Rape, peas and beans where and are subsidised, same with sugar beet. It saves the EU been over reliant on imports.
I seen NZ and US milk production, in the real world with no subsidies, NZ survives because it's mainly grass feed and bloody cheap, also animal welfare is much lower, cows shot and no vets costs.
US massive commercial farms, 15000 plus herds, cheap immigrant labour, Hormones to keep cows in milk.
Not sure what British farming wants, but we have never been self sufficient in milk, we have always imported from Ireland, Holland and Denmark, even before the EU. No one ever tells you that. They will dump milk and milk powder here, and always have. So it back to the MMB, PMB and Sugar Board, unlikely with free trade government and big farmers in charge, or we continue to lose family farms, there was 12 dairy herds in 25 miles of home in 1985, 20 in 1999, now not 1. Or we go like they want in Lincolnshire and 3000 head herds.

Please note in 2018 Britain already has food banks for people from my family background, many working poor. So I will ask again why should them and people like my family pay more to keep farmers, many small inefficient in business, if NZ and US survive with no subsidies. Honest question

I truly loved working for my 1st boss, 6 years on and off, even went back unpaid, on holiday from 3rd boss, so they got an holiday. Truly loved 3rd boss and living in Essex, 4 years. The rest I wouldn't waste my time to save them from a fire, 6 people have killed farming to me. Sadly they seem to be the ones still farming, my 2 great bosses have lost everything. Seems you have to be a ? to survive in farming, funnily enough, the good ones kept their staff for years, as I found the rest you escaped quickly, last job ever on farms I lasted 14 months, was their 15th herdsman in 18 years.

So please don't believe the PR from the government, NFU and CLA, most don't deserve your money anymore than a teacher, policeman, doctor, carer or disabled person. It spin.

Sorry but farming is hard, brutal and full of horrible people. With the odd nice guy/lady in there, sadly they are dying out, most are now hard faced, I won't say what many like my MIL would call them. She hates what farming has become.

I've come around to the point of view that farming is a vocation

It must be a vocation. Pretty well all farmers could halve their hours and double their money by working in B&Q

It's a love of the land I think.

Come and work with one. The farmer who farms our land, produces our hay and straw as well as beet, rape seed, rears sheep and turkeys is always very willing to teach a newbie in exchange for them hauling a couple of thousand bales in a day. His Dad takes some keeping up with I must admit but he is only 87 (compared to my 32) so as long as you don't mind a dent or two in your pride if you don't stack properly you'll be fine :)

US farmers are subsidised, it's often called 'price support' and it seems to be around $20 billion. I found an article that discussed suggestions that the subsidies should be cut, but in the end the US government cut food stamps.

I don't think many hill farmers or small dairy farmers could survive without subsidies, and I don't think these farmers scrounge. But I had a quick look at the Duke of Westminster's various companies, and his farming interests claimed over £400,000 in subsidies. I have never heard anything bad about the Duke, btw, he was just mentioned earlier. And of course he avoided paying death duties after his father died. I think that the Duke's upland farming tenants don't see anything of the subsidies the Duke claims, and have to work hard to pay him rent.

So is anyone a scrounger here, and if so, who is it?

there was 12 dairy herds in 25 miles of home in 1985, 20 in 1999, now not 1. Or we go like they want in Lincolnshire and 3000 head herds.

In our 3 mile long valley 20 years ago, there were 10 dairy farms. (One of which was ours with 120 milking cows). We hung on until 2010, when we jacked it in because it wasn't profitable. FIL was a major player in the MMB in the 80's, and what he had to say was interesting.

We found a milk cheque statement for April 1991 - when milk was being sold off farm for 0.21p/litre (with associated production costs being far lower and the MMB in existence). In 2010 when we told Dairy Crest to stick it, we were being paid 0.19p/litre and losing 0.03p/litre.

Next year will be the first year in 15 that we will be able to crawl out of the hole and survive without the BPS if it was taken away.

Because we're moving into horse livery.

What do the biscuits mean????

OP clearly a moron. Is it saying that????

Just another bored troll, taking advantage of weekend lack of as much MN presence....troll de lol.

Derxa
Don't worry, I laid down my labour in 2001, went off retrained and now work in an industry, which has it own problems, but 1000 times better than farming.
Stucksoutherner
I did that at 13, £5 a weekend and £10 a week in school holidays and stayed I farming until I was 31, married a farmer's daughter, still am 21 years later. See above for BIL. Wife and my blood commitment to their 75 acres.
But BIL and Wife have never worked on farms, MIL and wife where the ones who convinced me to give up.
See your bosses plan uses free labour, which is illegal.

It so funny, really because whilst your in farming you keep believing it's brilliant, say the same as Derxa, curious, thesearepearls etc, defend the shit that goes on. Do illegal stuff and turn a blind eye too it all, think agriculture deserves every penny it gets. Then you leave and go and do a job else where, like my BIL, my wife( his sister) me and 100 of others from farming backgrounds we know and guess what you never go back and actually you realise how shit it is and exploiting the industry is. Gangmasters, fear of loss of cheap EU/foreign labour, and you realise it's shit
If quiettiger's DD does not follow into farming, she will never return.

I sadly think it's telling the only people defending farmers on here are lifelong and generation farmers and people who only know the odd farmer, who never have to deal with them in true business. Farming is dying, why because once you escape it claws you realise what a crap job/life it is. both BIL and Wife would never ever encourage anyone to work on a farm. We know at least 50 sons and daughters who will never work on the land, farms already sold off, same with all the local dairy farms, no present generation wants them, all got better lives away from farming. Why?
Simple everything that made me a bloody award winning herdsman, make me a bloody good employer for non farming business, which as we have found out also pays better, treats you with respect and pays you on time and if there a problem sorts.
Sadly in my humble opinion a world away from farming.

user1471450935 If quiettiger's DD does not follow into farming, she will never return.

Trust me, if I and DH have anything to do with it, she won't be following us into farming! (And I married in! )

Any way seeing the like of Derxa and Curious obviously want to silence my experiences of farming, lived from the employee end, not the employer, I will leave. Sadly I am used to bullying from farmers, if I survived 2 physical assaults and 2 guns in my face, in real life, here is a walk in the park. Just don't believe every thing farmer tell you.
Quiettiger
Thank you, and I wish you all the best in what are good awful times, I hope your DD is happy in whatever she chooses, I hope for farming it may be to follow her parents, we need great farmers.
Off course we do.

The OP asked a good question, but used the wrong words, noticeable you all attacked her with biscuits or are they really Donuts, instead of producing well argued reason she/he was wrong. BULLYING and SILENCING her is great. I notice no one will answer why farmers deserve subsidies
No biscuits/donuts and I would never felt the need to explain why the OP was right.

treats you with respect and pays you on time and if there a problem sorts. Apart from paying on time thing, most jobs are grim with psychopathic managers and I include teaching in that.

It is not about the farmers deserving subsidies. It is about keeping the price of the produce artificially low to satisfy consumer demand for cheap food. This has already been pointed out - the £6 (equivalent cost in old money) single serving bar of chocolate, versus the modern family sized bar for £1, for example. Cheap, and often corners cut.