To feel sickened that this man is being referred to in this way (WARNING UPSETTING CONTENT)

[bigoldscaredycat]

This man raped a three month old baby boy to the point where the baby needed corrective surgery.

He is now in a women’s prison in Canada where he has beaten up a female inmate.

THIS is where self ID leads. Men like this being incarcerated with women and their crimes being counted as female.

torontosun.com/news/national/feds-deny-paying-for-convicted-pedophiles-implants

www.newwestrecord.ca/dangerous-offender-in-b-c-loses-appeal-for-day-or-full-parole-1.23279132

Go on, Mumsnet, delete me for deliberately misgendering a male baby rapist.

THIS.IS.A.MAN.

Perhaps this story will illustrate why feminists are so up in arms about self ID.

I would love to see even the staunchest anti-women transactivist tell me that this person is a woman and that they belong in a women’s prison.

So essentially your saying a female can only be created pre-birth? Even when its still an embryo it couldn't be altered to become the opposite sex?

That is correct. There’s an idea pushed by the tra crowd that embryos are ‘default female/plastic’ etc and this is really twisting the facts. Once conception has taken place, that’s it. The embryo starts to develop. In a male both X and Y chromosomes are active. In a female one X in each cell shuts down at random because you don’t need a double dose of X.

To change the sex at this point or beyond is impossible.

There seems to be a big push by some tra g groups to legitimise their sims with science. We see them a LOT on here. The problem (well, for them not me) is that science doesn’t support what they’re stating. So we have had all sorts of stuff, including MRI scans that they say show pink and blue Brains (they dont) sex is a spectrum’ (it isn’t) ‘all embryos are female’ (nope) and countless others. Including endless ‘but intersex!’

The reality is that you can’t change sex. Hormones don’t alter your physiology to bring you to women’s sport level, MRI scans don’t show there are pink and blue brains, there’s no empirical evidence for gender as a biological concept never mind ‘a gender identity.)

So having thought more about it (if anyone is interested). And I come to another thought experiment, whilst trying to understand trans. At some point in the future (I believe) a head transplant will be possible.

So imagine in the future a trans woman who genuinely believes they are a woman, has the opportunity to have a complete body transplant with someone who was born a woman.

So now they have a 'real woman's' body, a real vagina, womb etc and a brain that believes they are a woman. Are they still a man and should they be sent to a male prison?

Well yeah and if the moon was made of cheese I'd eat it.

Shall we deal with facts rather than sub par Nicholas Cage movie plots?

So imagine in the future a trans woman who genuinely believes they are a woman, has the opportunity to have a complete body transplant with someone who was born a woman.

So now they have a 'real woman's' body, a real vagina, womb etc and a brain that believes they are a woman. Are they still a man and should they be sent to a male prison?

Meanwhile, in the actual, real world...

Bowlofbabelfish Thanks again for the info, its hard getting your head around it all and to come to a conclusion. I have never met a trans person irl but on TV they seem so genuine and persecuted.

I have never met a trans person irl but on TV they seem so genuine and persecuted.

Ah - you're thinking of transsexuals. Rather than the fetishists and narcissists who make up the majority of the aggressive, violent men driving this thing.

Had, did you just call face-off "sub par"?!

That's just taking things Too Far.

Meanwhile, in the actual, real world I would hardly call MN the real world....

I remember in the last century when it was believed organ transplants would change your personality and worse. I do think trans 'issues' will be very different in the next century.

ber in the last century when it was believed organ transplants would change your personality and worse. I do think trans 'issues' will be very different in the next century.

Yeah...we can only legislate for the reality of current life, can't we?

By the way - whose full body do you get your 'essence' transplanted into? How does that work?

Freaky Friday wasn't a documentary.

Walkingdeadfangirl because men do rape they should not be allowed to pretend to be women and follow adult women and little girls into toilets, changing rooms and sleeping rooms/tents to watch them and expose themselves to them. Which is currently perfectly legal

I'm saying that and I am a man. There's a reality that exists whether you like it or not. There are real facts and real biology.

have never met a trans person irl but on TV they seem so genuine and persecuted.

It’s important to frame this issue at a class level not an individual level. Any one individual can be anywhere from delightful to devilish - it doesn’t tell you much about the class. Transpeople as a class present the same range.

Men, as a class, are a danger to women. Individual men can be anywhere from thoroughly decent, totally non dangerous blokes to violent predators - it tells you nothing about them as a class. Very few men make it obvious at first glance where they are, so we have things like sex segregated spaces/prisons because that works.,

The media is heavily biased just now - vulnerable teens (who I’m sure are all really decent kids, but i question whether them being thrust into the spotlight is a good thing for them ) are being put forward as ‘the face of the debate.’
Ask yourself why. Why are children being put in front of tv cameras like that? Because no one reasonable is going to grill an 11 year old on prison policy. It’d be a terrible thing to do to them. And useless. No 11 year old has a grasp of prison policy.

Media coverage is starting to be more critical and balanced. That is positive - what needed is open and frank public discussion about how changes to the GRA affect various things - including prison policy.

The problem is that certain TRA groups don’t want any public talking at all. And they get quite unpleasant to those who do.

Are there currently any statistics for men who truly transitioned

What do you mean by this @Neededastealthname

NO men have 'truly' transitioned as no men have:
changed from those that produce sperm to one that can produce eggs and carry a baby to term.

None.

Everything else - is plastic surgery and hormones to appease the mental health of the trans person.

Yeah...we can only legislate for the reality of current life, can't we?
But aren't we trying to legislate for whats coming rather than whats past? Especially for technology/biotech. Not so long ago I was reading about 3 parent families. Conceived using the DNA of 3 people.

whose full body do you get your 'essence' transplanted into? How does that work? well now even I know there is no such thing as 'essence'. People do donate their bodies, I am signed up to do so, can imagine head / multiple organ transplants happening in my grandchildren's lifetimes. Do these thoughts not get the core of what a woman is? Is it your body, your DNA, your experiences, your mind or something else.

We can’t legislate on science fiction either.

But if you’d like a couple of good reading recommendations on that line, Ursula le Guin’s ‘Left hand of darkness’, the ‘altered carbon’ series, and ‘Eon’ by Greg bear are all very good.

And science fiction

Christ. If there’s ever an argument for capital punishment, surely this is it. The rape of a 3 month old baby?!? For the life of me, I can’t find a scrap of compassion for this piece of shit.

Not so long ago I was reading about 3 parent families. Conceived using the DNA of 3 people.

That’s not nuclear DNA. It’s mitochondria from a third party. You could (technically, not in reality) create a genetic (nuclear) code from as many people as you wanted. It would have zero bearing on the sex of the offspring. The sex is set at conception.

People do donate their bodies, I am signed up to do so, can imagine head / multiple organ transplants happening in my grandchildren's lifetimes. Do these thoughts not get the core of what a woman is? Is it your body, your DNA, your experiences, your mind or something else.

Oh, mate...

'I wish I could fly, high up in the sky, but I can't'
you can
'I can't'

Who knew Orville would be the voice of reason one day? I blame Keith Harris for putting odd thoughts into kids' heads.

The problem is that certain TRA groups don’t want any public talking at all Isn't that on both sides of the argument? It is very hard to see a proper discussion on TV without both sides descending into childish bickering.

Christ. If there’s ever an argument for capital punishment, surely this is it. The rape of a 3 month old baby

Now I can agree with that.

It is very hard to see a proper discussion on TV without both sides descending into childish bickering.

Or people who think donating your dead body for medical students to cut up = transplanting of a deluded bloke's essence so he can live as a real woman...

Nope. The gender critical side wants to talk. Out in public. Drag this thing out and shine light on it. Dissect it, argue about it, talk about it.

The ‘both sides are as bad as each other’ trope is a thought terminating cliche.

There’s been no bickering I’ve seen. There have been bomb threats, physical violence, rape threats, death threats, threats to livelihoods, physical intimidation etc.

And all from one side. Actual bomb threats. Against women assembling peacefully. That’s a bit of an eye opener eh?

So if it is female to male trans - they are ok to go into female jails because they are biologically female. If they attack a female prisoner - then it isn't rape as it isn't a real penis.

The number of FTMs with a "penis" is vanishingly small, and I doubt they are hugely represented in the prison population.

A lot of people who are very sure of their opinions, without foundation, on this thread. People need to research a subject before spouting off ill informed nonsense about it.

There’s been no bickering I’ve seen. There have been bomb threats, physical violence, rape threats, death threats, threats to livelihoods, physical intimidation etc.

And all from one side. Actual bomb threats. Against women assembling peacefully. That’s a bit of an eye opener eh?

And women punched for daring to express opinions. And called all manner of offensive names, hounded off twitter, etc.