To feel sickened that this man is being referred to in this way (WARNING UPSETTING CONTENT)

[bigoldscaredycat]

This man raped a three month old baby boy to the point where the baby needed corrective surgery.

He is now in a women’s prison in Canada where he has beaten up a female inmate.

THIS is where self ID leads. Men like this being incarcerated with women and their crimes being counted as female.

torontosun.com/news/national/feds-deny-paying-for-convicted-pedophiles-implants

www.newwestrecord.ca/dangerous-offender-in-b-c-loses-appeal-for-day-or-full-parole-1.23279132

Go on, Mumsnet, delete me for deliberately misgendering a male baby rapist.

THIS.IS.A.MAN.

Perhaps this story will illustrate why feminists are so up in arms about self ID.

I would love to see even the staunchest anti-women transactivist tell me that this person is a woman and that they belong in a women’s prison.

But they’re not ‘really women’. Nobody truly thinks they are, some people just go along with it out of politeness or fear. Pointing out that someone is a male (or female) isn’t a value judgement, it’s just a fact.

If a man who has become a woman commits fraud but has never been violent or committed sexual offences then why can't they go to a women's prison?

One question to ask would be: Do this person have a penis? If the answer is "yes, this person has a penis", then maybe the answer ought to be that it would not be sensible to put them in a women's prison. That is, they should be put elsewhere.

Yep it's disgraceful and how can people think that if a man cuts his dick off he becomes female?! I mean what are we women to be defined as now, dickless men?!?

It's not for women to budge up and let this failed man and others like him into "womanhood".

I haven't read the whole case so can someone tell me is the perpetrator a male who raped a baby and since then has undergone FULL transition to female? Or are their a male who has self ID as female?

If latter than law is that she committed a crime while a male but is now female and should be in a female prison.
If former then he is a male who committed crime when a male and is still male and should be in a male prison.

While I have no sympathy for people who rape babies or anyone for that matter, I can see that we cannot send trans women who have all the surgery to a male prison whatever their crimes. And the same would apply to women who arw now anatomically correct men.

We can't decide we're someone is in prison based on our feelings about their crime.

Maybe special trans prisons... Were they can all go?

I agree 100% with pp about self ID being seen as a legally protected characteristic is allowing men into female areas where by they can behave with a frightening degree of impunity.

No Toetotoe - that article really explains nothing. And if you read the article - she was growing up in the 70s and 80s. Second wave feminists were LGB allies. The first line 'twitter' reference shows she is very much part of the fourth wave feminism movement.

Just a general point. That might be getting lost.

Adam Laboucan committed the crime of raping a baby. He committed the crime as a man and was convicted as a man. He was sent to a male prison, where he married a male inmate there.

Some years after his conviction, he identified as a woman and subsequently had sexual reassignment surgery. And changed name to Tara Desousa.

The heinous crime of raping a baby was committed by Adam Laboucan. A man.

But they’re not ‘really women’. Nobody truly thinks they are, some people just go along with it out of politeness or fear. Pointing out that someone is a male (or female) isn’t a value judgement, it’s just a fact.

This.

Here you go theredjellybean:

torontosun.com/news/national/youngest-dangerous-offender-gets-dd-breast-implants

He committed male violence, using his male genitalia against a defenceless baby, and wants to be put into a women's prison, a violent rapist, put in with vulnerable people. He deserves everything he got.

I am glad that he has been denied parol, a very dangerous man.

The crime was committed by a male, with his penis, while he still identified as male. Cant understand why he would ever go to prison as a woman just because of how he self-IDs afterwards. If he'd also decided he was 15 again would he get to go to a youth facility?

But it's gender shouldn't matter either way as the only suitable place for people who rape kids is six feet under.

Storm - is that the only thing you have to say? Pedantry? I consider myself a second wave feminist and I was born in the early 70s. I am an LGB ally, and always have been.

The trans ideology is something very different - and has allowed this male rapist and child killer to be housed in a women's prison - where he assaulted other female prisoner(s).

This person is already in a women's prison, no?

The Star link

This person was denied parole partly because:

"The earlier board decision said it was concerned that Desousa was unable to manager her anger after she flung another inmate by her hair, then kicked her in the face."

So he attacked a woman who was a fellow inmate.

Mind you, it's possible that the other inmate is also a male who identifies as a female.

Thanks nauticant.
In this case the perpetrator is anatomically female, so now should be in a female prison.
We can't say she has to be in a male prison as she was male when she committed the crime.
It should not be about what they did... But I like most have thoughts that what would happen to her in a male prison would be just punishment for what he did.
However if the judicial system cannot work like that.

This person is more of a concern because of their obvious mental health issues than their gender

Criminals don't get privileges- they don't get to vote, they shouldn't get to pick and chose which gender they want to be.

Still violent and considered a risk. Nasty piece of work, should be in a male facility. Attacked a woman, that is exactly what most of us are concerned about.

I they have had gender reassignment surgery, and are in currently a women's prison, they should be separated from the rest of the other women for their safety.

This person is the scum of the fucking earth and doesn't even deserve to be alive.

The issue over him assaulting other inmates..sureky that is down to her / his sociopathic mental health not the gender of his/her fellow inmates.
We can't conclude that because she was once anatomically male she is a grester threat to others... There is plenty of female on female violence in female prisons

What kind of sick fuck harms a child like that!

Theredjelly this tanswoman, will always be Male, you cannot alter genetics. Every gene he has, is an XY.

The government are currently consulting on changes to the Gender Recognition Act to make getting a Gender Recognition Certificate a simple process of self-declaration. One of the areas this will have the most impact is prison placements.

Prison instructions for trans prisoners in the UK can be downloaded here - scroll down to '17/2016 The Care and Management of Transgender Offenders'.

The prison service go by legal sex, first and foremost. They're not allowed to ask to see a GRC but they can ask for a birth certificate (the sole remaining thing a GRC is good for). If a prisoner has a female birth cert (original or obtained via a GRC) they will be housed in the female estate unless they present an exceptional risk, in which case they may be moved to a men's prison, purely because this is where the facilities are. They will still be housed separately from men and will be accommodated in line with PSI for female prisoners. TW prisoners with a GRC are treated as female in all circumstances.

There is case law directly referenced in the prison rules linked above that says that even if a tw is in prison for attempted rape, if they have a grc and hence a bc that says 'female', they must be sent to a women's prison. The bar is very low as we have seen in various cases that have made mainstream media.

Only for trans prisoners without a GRC - i.e. those who are legally male - are decisions made on a case by case basis. And the Transgender Case Board are no fools, which is why all those self ID trans sex offenders are still treated as male prisoners in the male estate.

Changing the GRA to a self-ID process would allow all of them to be treated as female. The vast majority would have to be moved to the female estate, with only the few exceptionally dangerous ones remaining in the male estate, but housed there as female prisoners.

Frances Crook, executive director of the Howard League for Penal Reform, said:

‘some men with a history of extreme violence and sexual violence against women have found a new way of exercising aggression towards women. These men are not transitioning because they like women and want to be a woman, but in order to exert a new kind of control and dominance over women, a sort of infiltration.

You can participate in the GRA consultation here. It's open until 19 October so there's no rush, it's worth reading through the documents properly and researching anything you're not sure about.

And then in this country we have violent torture murderer Paris Green, also in a women's prison at one point before had to be sent back to a male one: "Sadistic killer who was born a man but sent to a female prison for murder only to be moved for sleeping with inmate is set for £20,000 sex-change operation"
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3273582-Sadistic-killer-who-was-born-a-man-but-sent-to-a-female-prison-for-murder-only-to-be-moved-for-sleeping-with-inmate-is-set-for-20-000-sex-change-operation

In this case the perpetrator is anatomically female, so now should be in a female prison

I can see your reasoning theredjellybean but I can't agree with this. This person most definitely should not be in a women's prison. Maybe in a specially protected area of a men's prison with other surgically transitioned prisoners. Or a third space.

We can't conclude that because she was once anatomically male she is a greater threat to others

Actually, we can. Male pattern violence is a thing - it is verifiable by offending and conviction rates. Research shows that physically transitioning does not reduce male pattern offending amongst MTF transitioners.