To be seriously irritated by this stay at home dad?

[Ary2017]

Ok so I read this article:
www.bbc.com/news/stories-44718727
It's a stay at home dad complaining about the sexism he receives on a daily basis. AIBU to be super irritated by this

1. He finds the help he gets offered at a baby group when he can't console his 6 month old 'condescending'.

Being a new parent is hard for everyone but we go to these groups not just for the sake of our babies but for mutual support! And if we see someone in the group struggling with whatever problem we rally round! He's not special because he's a man! We do it for everyone. These are safe spaces where new parents (mainly mums) can feel comfortable to express the problems they face. Mums have been through much more than any man can have been through. Literally physically torn open and dealing with healing and coming to terms with a body we no longer recognise. Emotionally torn apart too with the baby blues and potential of PND. These groups are where we can openly talk about our most vulnerable parts and emotions and not be judged and everyone understands and supports. I've never had a negative experience at a baby group, how dare he accuse these women of sexism when they just wanted to help!

1. He's offended by people in public offering him unwanted advice and again thinks this is sexist because he's a man. Please. Again, you are not getting special treatment because you are a man, We ALL deal with this. For some reason strangers think they have some ownership over random babies in the street. Especially the older generation who did things quite differently it seems. Yes it's irritating but we just come to terms with it! We learn to not be upset by these busy bodies and become confident in the job we are doing.

1. 'Mothers I've met have asked if I am somehow the "mummy"' ok, terrible choice of language however it's not unreasonable to assume that a baby has a 'primary carer', in fact it's quite important that they do.

1. He finds the lyrics to nursery rhymes in the music group sexist against men. Again, you are not special here. Most nursery rhymes are ancient and have gender specific language that is sexist towards both men and women. I've found most music groups change or avoid the gender stereotype language.

1. He's finds the fact that most baby groups are tailored towards mums offensive- well yes of course because mums are massively in the majority as the primary carer.

1. He's found being a new parent 'lonely and exhausting'. Um yes, that's normal.

Sorry but a lot of the support at the beginning of parenting is geared towards mums because they have gone through pregnancy, birth, and we are just at the beginning of a long journey of healing physically and emotionally. We need this.

It seems to me he's displaying a little the 12th rule of misogyny: whatever women suffer from, men suffer from more.

Yes YABU

@brexitwife the concern is more around potentially being excluded from groups/meet ups to the detriment of the child (not yet born). The support part of it with the other Dads is more because he thinks it is unlikely he will get integrated into the groups/play dates etc and wants to ensure there is that socialisation. We live in a small town and our friend has already experienced this as a stay at home Dad.

What put me off socialising with the NCT and the like was the fact I had uncomplicated pregnancies, easy labours and births, bf babies who slept around 7 hours a day, supportive, hands-on partner... and that pissed off so many women. I was allowed to listen and make sympathetic noises, but any positives had to be kept for sharing with family and friends. If I wasn’t part of the traumatic disaster that was having a baby I should be silent.
So I took my optimism and my pfb away. I got nothing from those encounters but guilt that I was having fun.

Women are on here all the time complaining of their experience of being a new mum.
I think you are being unreasonable in dismissing the guys experience and feelings, I can completely see what he means about mothers at baby groups

OP I agree with you completely. Women experience everything he complains about, we just don’t have to be centred the way all too many blokes do.
Are you saying that because women put up with it, he should also? Because that's going to solve the problem, isn't it?

Massive entire projects in sociology of fatherhood on men's experiences in female dominated primary caring spaces - all matching this dads experiences and all ultimately going against gender equality. Entire departments of sociologists - particularly fatherhood studies sociologists would concur with his experiences and there is much written and researched on this.

Good scholars on the topic are Val Gillies and Andrea Doucet - they've done fab work on primary caring men's experiences in early years groups and the stuff that needs to change to better gender equality outcomes for mothers as well- also some fab work going on on Paternal pay and paternity leave to move gradually towards a take it or leave it Scandinavian model

Playgroups are hellish. He's certainly being very unreasonable of he expects much there!
I feel sorry for him on an individual basis - it's horrible to feel lonely and unsupported. But on a wider level, I cba to get all riled about how one man is having a hard time, until this stops being a common experience for many women. We are constantly criticised for how we parent - see sah v woh, bf v ff etc.

I strongly agree that changing tables should be in neutral locations so both sexes can take equal responsibility for their children.

I’m not surpised twiglet.
As I said if men and women aren’t normally socialising together (unless in couples) it seems logical that they won’t be socialising after meeting in a toddler group.

But the issue isn’t the playgroup or the fact it’s geared towards women. It’s the fact the whole society is segregating men and women right from being children.

There is no denying that the whole system is sexist. And that affects both men and women.

What I do not agree with is the whole ‘it’s so hard because I’m a man’ that forgets so many other very supportive things a man will get that a woman is unlikely to have.
Eg as a man they are likely to have a supportive spouse that will still do some HW and parent the child (rather than help) for example.
Once they have finished their SAHP time, they will still be welcome into the workforce
They are more likely to be listened to by a GP than their spouse (over reacting woman syndrome) etc

Just looking at one small part wo looking at the whole picture isn’t helpful imo.

I think the whole OP just crystallises exactly why he is right to feel how he does because he will come across people like the OP who will denigrate his position and experiences purely because he’s not a woman and didn’t give birth. Does that apply to adoptive mothers too? Because they didn’t give birth they can’t understand and shouldn’t be in a ‘safe space’? They can’t get PND so they don’t count? I doubt even the OP would go that far which does show a lot of the OP attitude is based on his sex.

I would absolutely loathe going to baby groups which were a ‘safe space’ and a place women could bang on about how awful everything is and how much they’re suffering.

I go to socialise my children and to have more adult focussed and interesting conversation than I get at home with infant and toddlers. I would much prefer to be in a baby group with him than the OP and that sort of patronising ilk who think women are incapable of accepting families come in all different shapes and sizes and dealing with that.

There are constant moans on here complaining about women who fall over themselves to fawn over men doing the most basic childcare and think they’re amazing and wonderful even just changing the odd nappy. It sounds like he’s coming up against people with these attitudes from the other side.

And yes, it is sexist if it’s okay for women to complain about sexist attitudes to childcare, but when a man does it, it’s out of order. Doesn’t make sense.

peure in your experience, is there as much research on in sexism is affecting women in early years settings too?
Because Obvioulsy, if a father experience is going against gender equality, this is also the case for mothers.
What is research saying in that I wonder...

Supporting fathers who are primary carers and normalising fathers caring for their children is enormously beneficial to women. It can only help free us from the shackles of being seen as 'natural' caregivers, shamed if we aren't the primary carers of our kids.

But by all means, shit on men when they try to discuss their parenting experiences much better to make sure it's a women-only club, eh?

I go to socialise my children and to have more adult focussed and interesting conversation than I get at home with infant and toddlers.

Well I agree with you there. Except that I’ve never found any group like this....
Which, btw, is also the reason why I’ve always felt isolated (welcome PND!) and never felt I could ‘fit in’.

Basically, birth mother or adoptive mother or father, all of us have the possibility to not fit in within those groups.

Not denying his experience but maybe it’s worth also not denying other women experience too.
And if you and me and him have had the same experience, is that because he experienced sexism but we didn’t??

* s there as much research on in sexism is affecting women in early years settings too?*

Vastly and incomparably higher amounts of sociological research on motherhood as compared to fatherhood. Far fewer fatherhood sociologists. All this ultimately working against women.

The waitress comment is ridiculous but other than that the article is a load of shit in my opinion.

I'm a dad and me and my partner (female) share time looking after our DS by both working part time. I'm pretty sure women are far more likely to be the 'beneficiaries' of unsolicited parenting advice then men.

What's "hard to imagine" for him is a common occurrence for loads of mothers. But when it happens to a man it offends our sense of entitlement.

My daughter had comic and cried endlessly for months. If I left the house I was told to feed her 10 or 20 times in the time I was out. As if I was starving her to death. It was annoying, but if it was a man would he have considered it sexist? It would be equally annoying for sure, and of course he is entitled to be annoyed. But I don’t see that it’s automatically sexist.
I never went to baby groups either. No one ever asked anything much about me, it was all talk about the baby. Which was what I left the house to avoid.

That's his personal experience.

He is entitled to it, however much it riles you.

He is entitled to his experience. But he’s not entitled to call “ sexism” if it’s not.
I will agree that maybe baby groups might be sexist, I haven’t been to more than a few. But getting unwanted advice certsiy isn’t sexist. Of course it’s condescending. In the same way being asked if your crying baby “ is your first?”, as if your inexperience is making your baby cry. But most parents will have experienced this.

People are judgemental of parents all the time, especially if they're outside the traditional set up of two-parent family with SAHM.

Shit that single mums face: "your child needs two parents", "a son needs his father", "you need to let your son be a man", "studies show that children of single parents grow up to be delinquent psychopaths"

Shit that working mums face: "Career women make bad mothers, discuss", "Who's looking after your child?", "Does your husband mind you going to going back to work" plus the unequal division of domestic labour

Shit that SAHDs face: his article

So welcome to the world of unsolicited advice!

OP I agree with you completely. Women experience everything he complains about, we just don’t have to be centred the way all too many blokes do.
Women experience being told that men can’t look after a baby and are told to bring a woman with them next time? That’s bizzare! When does that happen?

My partner took my son to pre school a few times and the staff tripped over themselves to help him hang his coat up

My partner also tool my son to hospital and ladies asked if he wanted them to change his nappy for him

This wouldn't happen to a woman so yes you are being unreasonable.

Oh, and baby groups are not 'safe spaces'. They're full of older mothers comparing their babies milestones. Not my cup of tea at all.

YANBU I saw that and thought the same thing. So many people are horrible about others parenting. I have had plenty of (a couple very) horrible experiences of being told how to parent because i'm clearly so useless at it when the person clearly knew nothing - It's shit and I feel for him but it's not exclusive to being a man.

When your biggest whinge about being a parent is that people offer to help you. Imagine that...

He clearly hasn't discovered the "free bacon sandwiches and pats on the back" Daddy groups yet.