To be seriously irritated by this stay at home dad?

[Ary2017]

Ok so I read this article:
www.bbc.com/news/stories-44718727
It's a stay at home dad complaining about the sexism he receives on a daily basis. AIBU to be super irritated by this

1. He finds the help he gets offered at a baby group when he can't console his 6 month old 'condescending'.

Being a new parent is hard for everyone but we go to these groups not just for the sake of our babies but for mutual support! And if we see someone in the group struggling with whatever problem we rally round! He's not special because he's a man! We do it for everyone. These are safe spaces where new parents (mainly mums) can feel comfortable to express the problems they face. Mums have been through much more than any man can have been through. Literally physically torn open and dealing with healing and coming to terms with a body we no longer recognise. Emotionally torn apart too with the baby blues and potential of PND. These groups are where we can openly talk about our most vulnerable parts and emotions and not be judged and everyone understands and supports. I've never had a negative experience at a baby group, how dare he accuse these women of sexism when they just wanted to help!

1. He's offended by people in public offering him unwanted advice and again thinks this is sexist because he's a man. Please. Again, you are not getting special treatment because you are a man, We ALL deal with this. For some reason strangers think they have some ownership over random babies in the street. Especially the older generation who did things quite differently it seems. Yes it's irritating but we just come to terms with it! We learn to not be upset by these busy bodies and become confident in the job we are doing.

1. 'Mothers I've met have asked if I am somehow the "mummy"' ok, terrible choice of language however it's not unreasonable to assume that a baby has a 'primary carer', in fact it's quite important that they do.

1. He finds the lyrics to nursery rhymes in the music group sexist against men. Again, you are not special here. Most nursery rhymes are ancient and have gender specific language that is sexist towards both men and women. I've found most music groups change or avoid the gender stereotype language.

1. He's finds the fact that most baby groups are tailored towards mums offensive- well yes of course because mums are massively in the majority as the primary carer.

1. He's found being a new parent 'lonely and exhausting'. Um yes, that's normal.

Sorry but a lot of the support at the beginning of parenting is geared towards mums because they have gone through pregnancy, birth, and we are just at the beginning of a long journey of healing physically and emotionally. We need this.

YABU, he may not have phrased it well, but SAHD's certainly face a degree of prejudice that SAHM's do not. My DH was a SAHD for 5 years and it was hard, as he was excluded from baby groups, Mummy What's App groups when they started school, not to mention the snide comments (which I would get as well if I mentioned that my DH was a SAHD) and he had a really hard time making friends as there were no other SAHD's and working Dad's tended to look down on him.

I think he is making a really valid contribution to understanding why hardly any men are SAHDs. It's massively sexist- just because a woman gives birth does not mean that she automatically has to be the primary carer for all eternity. You don't seem at all interested in challenging the stereotypes OP- in fact you seem to want to reinforce them.

But if a woman complained about experiences of being a new mum she wouldn't get front page of the bbc!

Duh, that's because it's part of a much wider debate which is why do women do nearly all caring labour in this country. So yes actually, it's pretty relevant when the exception to that rule offers some insight about why it might be so unevenly split.

Oh, come on op. You seriously don't think that a sahd would be subject to any sexism?

I've never had another mum offer to comfort my crying baby for me.

I have never been given unwanted advice from complete strangers in the street plenty from family and friends though

I don't actually understand point 3, I'll need to read the article.

The groups I go to are pretty inclusive with their choice of nursery rhymes actually. I can't comment on his experience though.

Number 5 I can't get worked up about, it's supply and demand as you say.

Number 6, actually I can imagine it might be a bit lonelier being a sahd. Harder to make friends with other sahp if most are mums.

But you are dismissing him. The subtext you've created is that his experiences don't matter.

Also, his experiences are going to be different than a woman. Not being able to go to classes, being asked who the mummy is, and his experiences of homophobia are not something a mother would go through.

He's on the front page because he is gay father, which is unusual. He wants to share what he goes through in that context. Instead of saying 'oh women go through these things too, so be quiet' we could say 'some of these experiences are shared, I empathise.'

I get the point you are making. It's not that you are dismissing his lived experience it is that his story has made the BBC which is rather a remarkable feat considering most mothers have similar lived experiences whose stories don't get on the Beeb. Almost as though a man has to have experienced something before it is recognised as worthy of attention.

In a similar vein, I read an article about men being reluctant to use their paternal leave and so forth because they feared it would damage their careers, I read that and thought 'Oh, you don't day!!'

*say

But having someone offer to soothe his baby is not being condescending. It is sexist but only because women offer to do men’s tasks all day every day in every regard. Women tidy up at family events, men at my work are ALWAYS offered extra help to free up their time to do more important things. Or in the way women step out of men’s way in footpaths. It’s sexist but only because society is. Not necessarily because he’s a dad.

He is experiencing something all parents go through. It’s nothing to do with him being a man. Lots of women can tell stories about family, friends, strangers offering unwanted advice. Did Alex Jones not talk about leaving a supermarket in tears because a stranger told her her to feed her baby? No one is saying his experience is rubbish, just that it is something both sexes get.

No one seems to care about it until a man highlights it.

Maybe I'm just fiercely protective of women knowing what they have been though/ could be going through

Yeah and it shows.

To the point where you seem to be dismissing the negative experiences of male parents.

Empathy/sympathy can be shown to all new parents surely?

I don't think he's unreasonable at all!

Really, there ARE people (mothers to be frank) who act like they are the only ones who have ever had children and they're in people's faces about it. And I imagine if you are a gay man raising children, you'll have plenty of mother's trying to inflict the 'mother's way' of doing things.

I'm all for advice, but it's downright condescending what this guy went through.
Raising children is a steep learning curve for everyone. No one wants or needs the Wise and Experienced Baby Whisperer 'helping' them out mid-toddler meltdown.

It's really important for parents to learn to read their children without interference.

My DH took a period of shared parental leave, he pretty much immediately stopped going to all the baby groups I’d done because he was either ignored or treated like a novelty. There were plenty of cafes where he couldn’t go to lunch with the baby because the baby change is in the ladies. There is discrimination.
We are never going to get true equality until men take on an equal load at home including childcare. Experiences like this put men off taking SPL and being a SAHD, which I’m afraid I think is a bad thing.

It's his experience and he's entitled to say what he feels about it. Some people will get angry about anything and everything.

Re pain of giving birth etc — relevant to a group for women who have recently given birth (or BF support or whatever), not all that relevant if the group is specifically for the babies . At the baby groups I’ve been to, women-specific ishooz never came up. (In fact many seemed a bit cliquey, with mums not interested in being involved in convo with women they didn’t already know.)

My SAHD DP hasn’t faced hostility, but then we are in London where perhaps this arrangement is a bit more common, and he doesn’t go to that many groups anyway (DD was always more interested in running about looking out of the windows than doing whatever they were supposed to be doing ). He did occasionally get HVs who seemed inordinately interested in what I was doing—where I worked, how long my working day was —ie a subtext of what I was doing away from DD, that I can’t imagine a SAHM being asked about her partner.

#yesallparents
I've noticed many things are for MUMS, is like it to change to PARENTS or even carers!
As Constance Hall says, talk TO the parent not ABOUT the parent.

I think, as others have mentioned, that you're being quite dismissive of his experience because he's a SAHD and therefore YABU.

My DH is going to be a SAHD next year when #3 comes along and I have no doubt it's going to be quite lonely and exhausting for him - not only because it's 3 kids under 2yrs but because all his friends (who are male) will be going to work not dealing with nappies and bottle feeds - there are far less 'dads groups' than 'mums groups' for him to tap in to. While I've never found 'mums groups' helpful or any less lonely, at least I know they're there and have a handful of girlfriends who have kids that I can message regularly and vent to - he doesn't have that outlet.

I do worry that my DH is going to develop a form of PND (despite people complaining that PND is restricted to 'women only' because men don't go through the 'trauma' of birthing a child)..

I'd say this SAHD has gotten the 'front page' because he's much less common in society, typically.

How do you know it's not because he's a man? Just because that's not how you see it, doesn't mean its not true. I would say that being a SAHD is probably even loner than being a SAHM and there are not many men in that position. If every group is mainly filled with women then of course it'll be lonely for him. Also bringing up ow he didn't have to go through the labour etc is comparing the two. He will so be on tv because he is the male doing the child raising. That's not a usual situation.

I think the waitress was out of order. That's exactly the kind of bullshit DH uses. DS2 comes in at 6am: "I've wet myself." DH: "Mummy's trying to sleep." Well, fine, you clean him up then, instead of leaving him in it. Obviously, I got up anyway.

Hmmm, yes I think SAHD do have a tough time. Why? Because historically and even today all of the unpaid caring work, housework and general shit work was / is assumed to be the woman's responsibility. And is seen as 'lesser'.

So basically, he - probably for the first time in his life unlike most women - has suffered the negative consequences of a patriarchal society.

When a man then takes on a traditionally woman's role (I'm not saying tradition is right - far from it) then of course he faces challenges. But it's not because men are discriminated against that is the root of the problem, in fact quite the opposite.

Why are the primary carers so lonely and isolated and unsupported? Because they are predominantly women.

It only makes front page news when it happens to a man of course.

I know a couple of gay dads, more men who have taken shared parental leave and men who work part-time to actively parent their children, who have experienced sexism in baby/child groups from mothers. Some people just find it hard to believe that a man does pull his weight around his children and actively parents them, plus does a lot of the mundane household tasks.

I also have worked with more and more men who are the first port of call when one of their children is sick due to their wife being the higher earner or on a career path where she will earn more.

On the other hand all these men will criticise other men who leave their child/children solely to their mothers to deal with in social situations.

@Ineedacupofteadesperately this guy is gay. He's suffered from a patriarchal society already.

But it can be lonely and exhausting for women as well!

I imagine it is lonelier for a man because there are so few SAHDs. At least the women have the chance of making friends or acquaintances.

I also found this statement amusing as, if you said the equivalent on a thread about a problem faced by women, you’d get shot down.

But I do think it's a good thing to air these views. Sadly, support for parents will probably only improve once there are more SAHDs finding out how hard it is. Not useful to make it some sort of weird competition between men and women, particularly because it obscures what should be the primary focus: the health and wellbeing of the children.

And fwiw I've had random strangers criticising my parenting / offering to help me with a newborn.

The no changing tables in the mens should be changed though. Apart from anything else it forces the woman to do it , which I'm very against (and what about kids who have two Dads?).

3. 'Mothers I've met have asked if I am somehow the "mummy"' ok, terrible choice of language however it's not unreasonable to assume that a baby has a 'primary carer', in fact it's quite important that they do.

YABU to assume that the male looking after the baby is not/cannot be a primary carer. And about the baby group thing - they were being condescending, you think they would've tried to hold a woman's baby if it were crying?

We all know at least one woman who claims that she had a "real" birth experience because she refused epidural, or god forbid a c-section . It's a small minority of idiots, but you can't deny they exist. I won't even go into the ones who pretend you are not a good mother if you don't exclusively BF.

When there's already so much venom and stupidity towards mothers themselves, can you imagine how a dad is treated?

I am embarrassed for them when I read mothers refusing for fathers to be included in their little group, but it's a reality.

I don't agree with all the points the SAD is making, but on the whole, I have witnessed that's it's much harder for a dad; at least to be integrated within the "mums groups".