To think that the way people treat male toddlers....

[Yellowcrocodile]

Is what leads to male entitlement in society?

Name changed for this as potentially identifying.

So I have a 2 year old DD and am currently pregnant with a boy.

Spent the morning at a playgroup in a naice area. I’ve come home feeling furious by the behaviour of some of the children and their parents. Basically there were a few boys 3+ who absolutely ran riot, screaming, running, shouting, snatching and hitting, and generally causing chaos. Their parents just smiled indulgently, and made comments like ‘boys have so much more energy’. None of them told their children off, apologised to anyone or acknowledged that their children were badly misbehaving.

It’s like this every fucking week. My daughter has her naughty moments too, snatches, tantrums etc, but as soon as she starts I tell her off (calmly), explain why she can’t do xyz, and say we are leaving if she carries on. She generally responds and behaves herself, and I’m very embarrassed if she doesn’t, as I have high expectations of her. Almost all of the other girls and half of the boys are the same, not perfect little angels but parented appropriatley and respond to boundaries.

It’s making me worried that when I have my son:
a. He’ll be a horrible little shit
b. I’m turn into one of the terrible parents who attribute his poor behaviour to ‘being boisterous’ or ‘naturally having more energy’

These children are never told off, and their sense of entitlement is growing by the day. This is probably hormones talking, but I can completely see how some men end up not doing any housework, feeling entitled to the best of everything, and go around raping and murdering people, as they are told from an early age that any behaviour is fine as they ‘have more energy’ and they just aren’t held to normal standards of behaviour.

Also, they all seem to be call very boring middle class names like william, Samuel and Benjamin, don’t know what that’s about? The children with names that would raise a mumsnet eyebrow are much better behaved.

So, AIBU to blame toxic masculinity and male entitlement on the tolerance we have for poor behaviour from boys in childhood?!

Or are hormones making me crazy...

I’m determined not to treat my son any differently to my daughter for both of their sakes, but feel really sad about the society they will both be growing up in

What gets me is that if any of these commenters on here had in fact given birth to a boy, they wouldn’t have this opinion that boys are bad and annoying etc.

It is absolutely classic. Just listen to some of the things you say before you spread this stuff around.

Boys can be wonderful, patient, sensitive, kind, lovely and caring. As can girls. Stop this ongoing stereotyping.

My daughter has her naughty moments too, snatches, tantrums etc, but as soon as she starts I tell her off (calmly), explain why she can’t do xyz, and say we are leaving if she carries on. She generally responds and behaves herself

I could have said the same thing about DS. He was a dream toddler. Always gentle and sharing and just lovely. And I was always annoyed by the “boys will be boys” comments about badly behaved boys. Oh and the, “boys get a testosterone surge” nonsense.

I now have DDs too and they’re not very different really. It’s entirely possible I just got lucky but I certainly wouldn’t put any of it down to gender.

I think OP is gender stereotyping and projecting a rather unkind bias towards basically - toddlers

They are that way because they are toddlers
End of

I hate these threads . The anti male
Bias starts young

I know,it's ridiculous and deeply worrying on so many levels.

1. they are toddlers
2. it's a playgroup( not a restaurant,shop,church.....)
3. the hatred towards said toddlers
4. the declaration that all toddler boys except those in the op's circle of trust become rapists or murders.
5. the way ops female toddler is expected to not run around or shout
6. the way op expects everybody to parent toddlers the same as she does......
7. the rudeness towards children with certain names
8. class prejudice 9)gender prejudice
9. gender stereotyping.............

It's a really unpleasant op

@P3onyPenny it really is, and I think if the prejudice and stereotyping was about age or race more people would be up in arms... Cannot believe some people are agreeing with this.
OP being pregnant in this weather is not an excuse for being so nasty about toddlers, it's quite worrying considering you are having a boy.

No this is just useless parenting, my little boy and little girl are made to behave wherever they are.

No, the people you are seeing do this are just twats who will end up raising.

...and that's what "Toxic masculinity" is as well, some people are twats. Roll the phrase "Toxic femininity" around in your mouth for a second and tell me that would be an OK, not sexist way to describe women who were abusers or twats - as if the very "act" of being female meant you had these proclivities yourself. Only a chauvinist pig would say such a thing...

Running around and shouting with excitement is behaving in a toddler group.

And we're talking about toddlers still in nappies not boys and girls.

...so I don't like to say the same thing in the other direction.

A million years ago when I studies psychology I remember studies where people were left to 'mind the baby' - a baby (given a neutral name and not dressed in the 'right' colour) was dressed in a pink or blue baby grow.

It was observed that the 'boys' were spoken to and interacted with in a different way to the 'girls'.

So 'boys' were strong, handsome, smart, little fighters etc and the girls were pretty, smiley, etc.

The toys they were given to play with were the usual - activity ones for the boys and dolls for the girls, and boys would be tickled and played 'boo!' where the girls would be cooed over, sang to, 'this little piggy' on the toes, etc.

It starts early. And I hate the whole thing where boys clothes are nice when they are little, then for some reason at about 3 or 4 it becomes all pirates, military and skulls!

Sounds much more like lazy parenting than anything else. I have 2 boys one of which is the fastest toddler on the planet he's an actual whirlwind but you can bet your life that if I caught him hitting/biting /scratching or anything of those things he'd be told off and lose the treat of being at the playgroup.
I've also had to step to when little girls are attacking my eldest for no reason, and when asked to apologise they run away and cry and the parents just assume these girls have been hurt by someone else.
Entitled parents are the issue, though not really sure you can do much to change it-perhaps look for a different playgroup?

I’m not sure but I’m glad I’ve read this because it’s made me think carefully about how I’m raising my son and reminded me to avoid stereotyping. So thanks!

Studies show that even from babys, boys are treated differently.

No ones saying that boys are bad ffs.
You are all so hell bent on feeling offend on your sons behalf you are not reading.

Boys are not different from girls at that age. Yet parents and society stamp out boisterous behaviour early in girls while it is encouraged in boys.
Its not just a suspision we have, its been the subject of lots of studies.

Are people really saying that the differences between boys and girls are only skin deep? All nurture an no nature?

Can anybody back that up? Any, nice big meta studies? Not small observational stuff with a cohort of maybe 20 kids, all children of academics and done for an undergrad project.

Anything properly conclusive?

Are people really saying that the differences between boys and girls are only skin deep? All nurture an no nature?

Yes, I think that’s the sum of it. I was under the impression that there are no physical differences between boys and girls until puberty? Boys and girls end up more able at certain tasks which has been shown consistently in studies on the subject. It makes sense if they are talked to differently and encouraged to play differently from the moment they are born. Of course it’s totally impossible to say for sure isn’t it? Most parents don’t realise that they are socialising boys and girls differently as it’s very small tweaks to behaviours that are almost subconscious I think.

Are people really saying that the differences between boys and girls are only skin deep? All nurture an no nature?

There are obviously biological differences.

I do personally believe everything else is societal.

Most parents don’t realise that they are socialising boys and girls differently as it’s very small tweaks to behaviours that are almost subconscious I think.

Yes, exactly this. I have a son and while I try not to treat him in a certain way because of that, I do wonder if I would be any different with a daughter without realising it. I hope not. But it's almost impossible - remember we've all been socialised this way too!

I have found irritating toddlers (& parents!) to be fairly evening spread between the sexes tbh.

*evenly

There really is a lot of failure to read for understanding on this thread.

Boisterous boys are seen as negative/trouble makers/disruptive etc...

Boisterous girls are seen as positive/hilarious/strong etc...

If anything it is going the other way and boys’ behaviour is being challenged, whereas girls get away with it. This starts from an early age. If a boy hits a girl there is mass outrage. If a girl hits a boy he’s told to “man up”. This is the same sort of attitude when it comes to domestic violence. So it starts early.

Fun no they're not. There has been a massive imbalance for YEARS so people need to actively encourage girls to be louder, pushier and more aggressive when it's suitable.

Boys on the other hand have been encouraged to be all those things for CENTURIES...girls have been told to be quiet.

I've never ONCE heard anyone tell a boy to man up when a girl has hit him. Not once.

Can anybody back that up? Any, nice big meta studies? Not small observational stuff with a cohort of maybe 20 kids, all children of academics and done for an undergrad project.

Anything properly conclusive?

As people have said upthread, there have been studies done that show people gender even foetal behaviour (more likely to describe boys kicking as 'strong' or 'violent') and that caregivers react differently to children by sex, even if they are given the wrong sex. So we know people treat boys and girls differently. Given this, I can't imagine what sort of conclusive evidence you imagine it would be possible to produce independent of this. What do you want, a study of thousands of children locked in boxes so that they have no societal influence whatsoever? Obviously, there is no such study.

It's often assumed that men will be men, science, neuroscience, research into such things as gender differences at the level of biology.......it simply restates as fact it's own hypothesis. The starting point is always men have more testosterone, men are aggressive, therefore testosterone makes men more aggressive.

Male babies are treated differently at birth, it simply becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. It is assumed they will be more assertive etc, behaviour towards them encourages and supports this, when the behaviour manifests itself the narrative of natural/biological destiny is used as an excuse.

I have two boys. Both were calm, spoke early, showed very early signs of understanding empathy and justice. I remember many times when as toddlers they approached me to tell me about others hitting and biting. Both boys were bitten and neither hit back. The youngest was two and a bit, he said "it's not nice, don't do that" and removed himself from where the other child was.

I stayed home. My influence was not diluted by the influences of others. I took seriously attachment. I spent all my time with them. I didn't raise my voice. I watched closely for signs of melt down (struggling with emotions/tantrums) at the earliest sign I picked them up and hugged them. I modelled empathy and I think more importantly I set out to ensure they spoke, early.

If men behave aggressively, violently, with entitlement it's because it's been encouraged. So called toxic masculinity is learned behaviour, and it's endorsed not just by other men but by society and it's nurtured from the get go. It proliferates because of ignorance and the way in which the ideology of science and the findings are used to support ideology, this is used to support existing power structures. Biological determinism and reductionism is used by right wing elite to maintain and justify male supremacy and class inequalities.