To wish schools didn't have uniforms?

[bluebird14]

I hate them

I went to a school, in Canada, that disn’t have uniforms.
Except they did, unofficial uniforms that all the cool kids wore etc.
I spent years lusting after a Club Monaco sweatshirt.
I am so glad my children’s school has uniforms so we don’t have to deal with this crap.

@Yura do share the link!

Diana nobody has said there is no bullying in non uniform schools. But there is no evidence that bullying rates are any lower where there is uniform. What stops bullying in school is cracking down on it hard.

FittonTower did at 14:47 on the 2nd, can’t be bothered finding the other ones.

I agree what stops bullying is cracking down hard on it. I don’t believe removing uniforms would stop bullying without that. Likewise I don’t believe adding a uniform policy to a previously non-uniformed school would increase bullying.

Diana we are in agreement. I think people get carried away because there are also a lot of people on this thread who seem to believe that having uniform actually reduces or eliminates bullying. Which we both know it does not.

I really can't see how getting rid of uniforms would save anything for parents
Well, obviously it would, because they would just wear the same clothes they wear at weekends and in holidays.
It wouldn't save money if you went out and bought some clothes specifically for school, but there's no need to do that, is there?

I really can't see how getting rid of uniforms would save anything for parents

Well, if DD1's 6th form had had a mandatory uniform of crappy polyester 'business wear', I would have had to go out and buy that. Because she does not possess such clothes; she does not need them in real life and will not need them for some time, given that at university there is no uniform.

So because there is no uniform of any kind in her 6th form and she goes to school in the clothes she already has, I have saved ££££. I have not needed to increase her monthly clothing allowance at all.

Business dress is a fairly good idea in 6th form tbh.

With a more relaxed dress code you end up with kids in pyjamas ( or near enough) or in this hot weather negligee/beach wear.

topcat you must have some interesting schools around you...

DD has been going to school in loose-fitting print trousers, sandals and a cami (not a very strappy one). Eminently decent, the sort of thing a uni student would wear. Her peers look no different. A lot of the boys are wearing knee length shorts and T-shirts. They look fine.

And they aren't too hot to do some learning, which they would be in a polyester suit.

And frankly, I and my peers went to school in almost beachwear during long hot summers. The world didn't end. Teachers were wearing similar.

I'm loving the 'end of the world' scenarios that will ensue if students are not forced to wear cheap polyester fake suits to school

Time spent sorting uniform indiscretions that could be spent teaching - if pupils came in their own clothes there would be even more 'indiscretions' to deal with: revealing clothing, offensive writing on clothing, too casual, etc. So many rules would need to be enforced that it wouldn't save time at all.

My DC have been to schools with uniform and schools without uniform - I love uniform! So much easier to get them out of the house in the morning without the arguments about what they are wearing / whether X is appropriate / where Y has gone

Who said business dress needs to be a polyester suit? There are lots of things that would pass as business dress that are nothing like that and just as cheap to buy.

Your DD might come in dressed appropriately, but it doesn't mean that everyone else's does. In schools in the past I've regularly dealt with inappropriately dressed 6th formers . Oh and many ones with more relaxed dress codes wouldn't allow a cami, you might think its appropriate, lots of others wouldn't.

"End of the world scenario" didn't say that, but then you didn't want to actually counter the point, which is why you were facetious.

The uniform/dress code tends to be about meeting the needs of the whole community.

topcat... I've countered your point repeatedly earlier in this thread if you can be arsed to read through it.

But yet you responded to mine with a facetious point? So I should hunt through the entire thread looking for your name to see what you said?

Nah, you might have read my point very early on that said when I've been involved in the setting up of schools ( 2 of them) parent overwhelmingly backed uniform.

Where I am the majority of 6th forms ask for some form of business wear, I don't notice cheap polyester suits at all. More like shirt and trousers, top and trousers/skirt which looks just fine, and can be adapted for hot weather.

Its hilarious, but the uniform complainers are NEVER going to get their way whilst their children are at school, and of course you chose the school undoubtedly for its ethos. Yet now you are in you want the rules changed for you.

Typical MN exceptionalism.

topcat DD's school does have a dress code. It's very simple: Clothes must be clean and not ripped, no offensive slogans on T-shirts (so no swear words or hate speech). Bare shoulders are fine.

FWIW bare shoulders are also fine in the office where I work, which is staffed by highly qualified professionals who work in health research.

And the point has been made in many places on this thread that in countries where school uniform is not the norm, teachers do not spend hours and hours policing dress code infractions.

What does 'meeting the needs of the community' even mean?

And as for the 'they spend ages deciding what to wear and it might be in the wash' - sorry, but that's nonsense. If stuff is in the wash, they should have put it in the laundry earlier. And by age 5 my DDs were perfectly able to plan and lay out their outfits for the next day. What is it about British kids that they need years and years and years learning how to dress appropriately for a given context? Kids the world over seem to manage it just fine...

But yet you responded to mine with a facetious point? So I should hunt through the entire thread looking for your name to see what you said?

You don't need to hunt at all. You could just accept that sometimes people make facetious points.

Its hilarious, but the uniform complainers are NEVER going to get their way whilst their children are at school, and of course you chose the school undoubtedly for its ethos. Yet now you are in you want the rules changed for you.

My children are at non-uniform schools. I am in no way demanding that any rules are changed. I'm very happy with them.

That's not why I chose the schools though. I chose them because they focus on stuff that actually matters, rather that focusing on ridiculousness like what kids wear to school.

I've always thought the bare shoulders rule was just a line. It means you don't have to make a judgement call about every top for the dress code, and it means you don't discriminate against girls for their shape.

"Teachers do not spend hours and hours policing dress code infractions."

My experience is different, as has also been said on here. The schools I worked at in the US did spend hours dealing with dress code infractions.

"I chose them because they focus on stuff that actually matters, rather that focusing on ridiculousness like what kids wear to school"

Most schools in the UK have uniform, about 99% of the outstanding ones do, are they focusing on the wrong thing?

Speaking of which, I've never spent any time in a school where a long time was spent dealing with uniform. Mostly its just "tuck your shirt in" or what ever and the instruction is followed. A lot of drama made up here to fit your prejudices.

"What does 'meeting the needs of the community' even mean?"

Well it means that everyone's interests are looked after, all stakeholders. So - no caps/hoods so you can be identified on CCTV,
6th formers in own clothes must wear ID so you can be identified as one of our students. Dress code is smart casual because the ethos of the 6th form is that whilst you have your independence, you are also an example to the rest of the school and supposed to be one of the student community leaders etc etc.

Fair enough, if you are going argue that uniforms have been proven not to add anything to educational attainment by the Sutton Trust, then I'd take that as a relevant point. I used it my self when setting up a school about 4 years ago, the parents still backed uniform.

Dress codes have as many faults as uniforms do, and yes schools with dress codes ( especially secondaries, non uniform primaries don't count cause really you are choosing their clothing) do spend a lot of time dealing with it.

topcat I'm not talking about schools in the US, where they get incredibly pearl-clutchy about dress codes as the country gets more and more right wing... I'm talking about Germany, the Netherlands, places where I spent a lot of time and where I still have friends who are parents of teens. They have outstanding schools over there too - they just don't have uniform.

Our 6th form is on a completely separate site across town these days, so the 'being an example to the school' doesn't really apply - but there was no uniform there even when they were on the same site. The example was set by good behaviour and hard work. The UK obsession with form over function and style over substance still baffles me after 21 years here.

My DD1 carries a swipe card which identifies her as a student at the school. She needs it to get in, but does not have to display it.

I didn't bother quoting the Sutton Trust argument because I kind of take that as read - it's just that the uniform fans seem to like ignoring it so no point trotting it out.

If someone could explain the UK obsession with outward conformity to me, that would be great.

Most schools in the UK have uniform, about 99% of the outstanding ones do, are they focusing on the wrong thing?

What does this prove?

Schools in other countries do not all have uniforms, including the outstanding ones.

Perhaps uniforms are not what makes the difference between outstanding and not outstanding.

Perhaps it's actually about something other than what the students wear.

DD is at a top 20 US school. Kids wear PJs to class. They still get into MIT, Westpoint, the Air Force Academy...

the ethos of the 6th form is that whilst you have your independence, you are also an example to the rest of the school and supposed to be one of the student community leaders etc etc

DD is 17 so if she was in the UK she'd be a sixth former. She tries to be a community leader and good student.

She's overloaded herself with classes and works hard to get As.
At 17 she's got 5 APs.
She sets aside 3 hours a week to tutor other students in math.
She got herself elected onto student senate and as part of that she asks her fellow students what matters to them, then campaigns on their behalf to get their needs met.
She's on the committee for the literary magazine.
She runs several clubs and as president of one of them she teaches other students to sing.
Plays on a team and represents her school.
Plays an instrument on the school orchestra.
Sings in the school chorus and represents the school in state choral meets.
Represents the school in math meets on the math team.
Was the leader in arranging activities for Spirit Week.
Is a student supporter for newer students.
Volunteers at weekends for various local charities.

But... you know... she wears jeans so she's a bad example...?

Semster I think a lot of the people on this thread are only seeing the UK system and somehow thinking it has to be that or total anarchy.

FWIW from what I gather, those schools in the US where dress codes have been an issue have always been about what girls wear - strappy tops distract boys, that kind of nonsense. I have no time for any of that.

When we were looking at primaries for DD, all were rated ‘good’ but 2 were ‘outstanding’. One was absolutely streets ahead of all the ‘good’ schools, the feel, the vibe, the work we saw and the staff were amazing. The other felt like a drone factory. The first had no uniform (like two of the ‘good’ schools we saw), the second did, and very neat and tidy the children looked too, but the school had no personality to speak of and the children were as quiet as mice, they had no oomph at all.

Now I’m not so dense as to put that down to uniform but for me it was part of the package that made it unappealing.

Our HT (at one of the ‘good’ schools, we were out of catchment for the amazing one) is immensely experienced and is, I believe, more than capable of making good decisions for his school that don’t have to conform to the norm in British schools. So no uniform, homework is minimal and laid back, year two Sats were pretty much ignored (I didn’t even know when Dd had done them, neither she nor her teacher made any mention of them. The HT clearly didn’t feel they were worth a damn). The staff are amazing and loyal, it is very well staffed, with plenty of additional teachers. I have, in four years, not heard speak of any bullying issues.

It is a wonderful school. Not perfect, but wonderful. The children love it, the parents love it and the staff clearly love it. An inner city school with a diverse intake. When I go to the summer concert in the playground, everyone there with their picnics, the classes and staff doing their songs - it’s an amazing community.

That’s not down to a lack of uniform, it’s down to a strong HT with fantastic staff support, who understands education and isn’t afraid to go against the prevailing norms to provide the best for the children in his school.

Speaking of which, I've never spent any time in a school where a long time was spent dealing with uniform. Mostly its just "tuck your shirt in" or what ever and the instruction is followed.
This and because students know I expect uniform followed they tend to have it neat and worn correctly when they arrive to my lesson.

To be honest, uniform is a red herring most of the time. The question is do students and parents follow the rules of a place they signed up to or do they think they are above the rules?

The only time dealing with uniform becomes a large or time consuming issue is when you have a student who doesn't follow rules, gives attitude when told to follow rules, has a parent who congratulates their child for arguing (usually arguing that disruption was the teacher's fault because the teacher should have let their child do what they like), has a parent who tells their DC not to attend sanctions for uniform infringements etc. At that point the issue isn't uniform, it's defiance. Ultimately those pupils usually end up being PITA throughout school and are usually backed by home.