How unusual was this abuse? Triggering.

[redrobin1000]

Posting in AIBU for the traffic as I need a wide response please. Posting for my male friend - I'll call him Jack. If you can't be bothered to read the whole post as it's overlong, it would still be great if you could read the first paragraph and respond. Thanks.

As a child in the '80s, Jack's father (I'll call him Simon) used to punish him and his siblings using the buckle end of a belt. Jack remembers terrible pain, welts, blood and being unable to sit down comfortably for days afterwards. This took place during the middle school years. He doesn't know what label to put on these experiences.

Jack doesn't know if Simon's parenting was 'normal' for the 80s but he thinks it was. It's important now because Jack is dealing with massive psychological issues (he thinks he's on the narcissistic spectrum). He would like to get a clearer perspective on his childhood, which he has always believed was idyllic. Hopefully your replies will give some idea of how common - or not - his experience was.

For context, Jack has tended to see Simon as a god-like presence in his life. Simon is a highly successful business man and Christian leader. He is almost universally admired and has even opened his home to have kids from the foster care system stay for years. It's hard to see him as the architect of an unhappy childhood. However, Jack has spent time in counselling with two counsellors who both know Simon well (it's a small area) and they have independently offered their experiences of having felt controlled/bullied by him in a church setting. They apparently used the phrase 'narcissistic traits'. This was a revelation to Jack.

As far as the punishments go, Jack remembers feeling sick with fear each summer when report cards were sent home. He was the school 'nerd', targeted by bullies and suffering from dyslexia. Jack's teachers told him he was a disgrace to his family. Simon belted him for his poor reports because he believed it was 'a character issue'. As an adult, Jack asked his father why he didn't help him with his prep instead. His father replied that he would have found that 'boring'. Although the punishments were not limited to report card season, Jack still repeatedly says how 'safe' he felt with his father to protect him when he talks about his childhood memories.

Jack doesn't know where his mom was when the punishments were taking place. He remembers her being told to leave the room if she tried to speak when his father was disciplining.

As an adult, Jack successfully joined his father's business. During his twenties, Jack went through a long phase of being informally counselled by Simon and taking his advice to the letter (a lot of people seem to do this). Looking back, Jack is embarrassed by some of the things he did when acting on Simon's advice. Once, he wanted to start a relationship with a female friend he was 'dating' but didn't feel attracted to her. At his father's suggestion, Jack asked her to start wearing more make-up. When she took offence, Simon said she was suffering from 'psychological issues'. It might be relevant to say that Simon has also explained his mom's 'failings' to him in detail (apparently she 'emotionally opted out' of parenting him) and warned Jack not to 'lose control' of his wife when he marries. For some reason, Simon believes good-looking people are usually 'sinful' and thought, on first meeting his future wife (who is startlingly beautiful and younger than him) that she was so beautiful she had to be 'full of sin'.

Counselling has helped Jack to see that Simon isn't perfect today. As an adult, Jack thinks that he and Simon are probably both on the narcissistic spectrum (the difference being that Jack is worried about it). But Jack sees the childhood punishments as an error of judgement in an otherwise healthy upbringing. This leaves him at a loss to understand how he has ended up so lost and unable to 'feel' things, including empathy. As most psychological work seems to start with childhood, Jack finds it difficult to get past the starting gate. It doesn't help that Jack has very few memories of his childhood but has been told many, many stories about his childhood by Simon. Or that almost everyone we know thinks Simon is our state's answer to Billy Graham.

I have tried to suggest that the punishments may be too extreme to be explained away - perhaps they're a sign that Jack's childhood needs weren't being met in the way he thinks they were. He knows my view but it doesn't make sense to him. It's not my job to sort this out and I can really go no further to help. But Simon is a huge fan of second opinions and will think deeply about anything that is reflected back to him here. Thank you for sticking with me to the end (if anybody has)!

Jack is on the narcissistic spectrum??

well I was a kid in the 80's and nobody ever hit me with a belt,or with any object that is definitely physical abuse.some parents did smack more readily perhaps in the 80's, but a slap on the bum or legs is different from feeling fear and getting hit with a belt buckle that causes bleeding and welts.
Simon sounds absolutely awful, with his abusive and controlling ways and his ridiculous ideas and opinions.
I feel sorry for Jack that he had this childhood - it sound's far from idyllic , and very odd that he has few memories apart from stories that simon has told him, sounds like he's blocked alot of it out.
I have no experience of this or advice, but hope that he gets the help he needs to lead a happy and healthy life, and to see his father for what he truly is!

keep serving Not a troll but going to discount your response simply because I can't understand it. Yes, I do think Simon hasn't helped and I've acknowledged that but you are not bound by my view - I've made it clear that many think Simon is wonderful. I have given the details as Jack has related them, emphasising what he has emphasised.

Thank you to the other two posters. Yes, Jack does think he's on the narcissistic spectrum, rightly or wrongly.

Odd tap on the back of the legs if we were really being naughty, answering back very rudely, fighting etc but never anything like that described in your post.

Please tell me Simon is not still looking after foster children? Because he clearly shouldn't be allowed near any children at all.

Jack is a victim of significant child abuse. Being beaten until he bled was not 'normal in the 80's', or, in fact, at any time. While there are historical records of such behaviour, the reason that these records exist is because the behaviour was unusual. The people who behaved this way were always considered cruel and abusive.

Simon is a man who has abused his power over Jack for many years, stretching into adulthood. There is no reason for Jack to assume he has narcissism. He is a survivor of severe childhood abuse, struggling to come to terms with what happened to him. It is not unusual for victims to choke down the reality of what happened to them. While it was happening, they were powerless, and had to go along with whatever narrative they were being fed. To do otherwise would have been 'naughty', and rendered them deserving of further 'punishment'. "Jack is well looked after" "Jack's father cares for him" "Jack has a happy childhood" are all narratives forced on him. "Simon is cruel and abusive" does not fit with this narrative, so he cannot allow himself to think it, because if he did, he would deserve punishment. Jack is still thinking like that terrified, beaten little boy.

Essentially, Simon's really screwed Jack up. Jack needs to contact survivor organisations and get some specialised counselling, rather than relying on the church.

An very infrequent smack on the bum termed a wallop for dangerous or very naughty behaviour.

I did have friends who's mum would attempt to whip them with the end of a belt but it was more a threat and those girls were fast runners.

I knew no one who was hit till they bled. That would have shocked me in the 80's and today.

Obviously it does happen but not my normal born 1969.

HTH

Simon was extremely abusive and has damaged his son.

I’m 40 so grew up in the 80s and was never hit or beaten, let alone with a weapon.

FWIW, a friend on mine was beaten by his father with a belt buckle and nearly blinded. He was carefully monitored by Social Services after that incident. Even then it was seen as abusive to beat a child in the way you describe.

I know people in the 80s who were beaten with a belt by their dad. I was horrified then (they were my age). They now have no contact with him.

Jack needs more help to see Simon how he really is.

Simon is an abusive piece of shit and I’m sorry jack had to endure him.

I'm an 80s child was often hit (beaten) with plastic souled moccasins and left with tread print welts/ bruses also for bad school reports (dyslexic back then we were thick,stupid and lazy) and other insignificant nonsense only it was my mother who instigated it all

What you can describe is serious physical and psychological abuse.
You so describe unprofessional conduct. He should not be recieing counselling from anyone known to the family for reasons of confidentiality, objectivity and the personal experiences/opinions you mention the counsellors making.
I’d suggest he finds a suitably qualified professional (e.g. via local charities for survivors of abuse or Counselling/Clinical Psychologist) to help him make sense of these issues..

I grew up in 80s was hit and thumped by parents but not with things. Had a friend who was hit with anything going similar to above but that wasn't the norm but people turned a blind eye to it mostly.

Teachers obviously hit with things in school too but that was mainly boys and kids from poorer backgrounds. Remember kid being beaten by teacher then head stuck down toilet then soap put in his mouth. At secondary several of the teachers were sleeping with 14 year old girls at school, people knew including the Head and did nothing. Yes its abuse but adults generally knew and did nothing in my experience. I knew another girl in foster care whose Dad used to push her down the stairs, teacher just moaned at us for reporting it saying we had put her in difficult position. I don't know how widespread this was but was like this where I lived. DH is French teachers used to hit them round face and mother shut him in cupboards and slapped him round face.

Should add I grew up in 70s when women were not supposed to leave husbands but my mum left our dad for similar behaviour. It was not acceptable behaviour even then.

This is an example of how hugely toxic and damaging religion can be. there are a lot of disgusting shitbags like Simon out there, being 'wonderful Christian men' and terrorizing and abusing their families. If they foster children, it's usually to abuse them, as well. Yet everything's condoned and covered up because the imaginary friend and the religious group are more important than the physical and mental health of children - and women. I bet there are several men in this group who abuse their wives and families - and if any of the wives seek help, they get told to obey their masters because the imaginary friend says so...

Did you mean Jack is a huge fan of second opinions, not Simon?

This wasn't a normal childhood, ime, even in the 70s. I was hit by my father with my mother flapping about and saying, 'Not on the head, X', when he was hitting us! And my mother held the threat of 'Wait until your father gets home' over us. But no belt or belt buckle. By the time I was 16, I was strong enough to stop him.

Exactly what ReanimatedSGB said.

I how you are going to let Simon see what people have been saying? Surely he doesn't blieive this is/was a normal way to act. He is a disgusting abusive piece of shit and should be locked up, no matter how great people think he is. Abusers are usually very good and playing the part of a wonderful person. He should be strung up for child abuse.

This all sounds very odd. Why would back receive counselling from people who know his famil. Also why would Simon be counceling Jack?
Where is jacks mother now? Does she not get an input or is she kept quiet even now.

Sorry this all reads wrong...

That was not a normal childhood in the 70s or 80s.
In primary school, for outrageous offenses in the 70s, you might (in my school) get sent to the headmaster who would smack your open palm with a ruler once.
We thought it was the end of the world & made sure we were never that naughty.

There might have been some unfortunate children who got beaten with a belt at home, but that never happened to anyone I knew as a child.
It wasn't 'normal'.

A lot more parents did smack their kids back then, but usually with a hand on the backside if they were very naughty.
No blood, no welts, no bruises.

If Jack is concerned about being a narcissist then he most likely is not a narcissist.

The deadening of emotions is adaptive behaviour he learned in order to avoid processing what was done to him as a child and in order to get through each day. He also made up an image of a protective father for the same reason. He constructed a useful narrative. The alternative to it was a terrifying world in which he was powerless and completely vulnerable.

No, beating with the buckle end was not something that happened much in the 80s or the 70s. Even beating with the other end of the belt was something rare iirc (middle class upbringing in Dublin, born mid 60s).

Did Simon sexually abuse Jack?

Jack needs to find a therapist away from his family and church circle.

Simon sounds absolutely appalling. Bullying and cruel. Nasty nasty man.

Sadly, quite a few successful businessmen are.

Of course he was a victim of abuse. But in certain Christian circles this is not necessarily going to be recognised,

I'm a child of the 80s. Extreme Christian cult survivor. It was all "spare the rod and spoil the child" justified and in many circles still is sadly. If this is his mindset... well he isn't going to think of himself as a victim.

It's not massively unusual in those circles. It's practically still praised today in some!