How unusual was this abuse? Triggering.

[redrobin1000]

Posting in AIBU for the traffic as I need a wide response please. Posting for my male friend - I'll call him Jack. If you can't be bothered to read the whole post as it's overlong, it would still be great if you could read the first paragraph and respond. Thanks.

As a child in the '80s, Jack's father (I'll call him Simon) used to punish him and his siblings using the buckle end of a belt. Jack remembers terrible pain, welts, blood and being unable to sit down comfortably for days afterwards. This took place during the middle school years. He doesn't know what label to put on these experiences.

Jack doesn't know if Simon's parenting was 'normal' for the 80s but he thinks it was. It's important now because Jack is dealing with massive psychological issues (he thinks he's on the narcissistic spectrum). He would like to get a clearer perspective on his childhood, which he has always believed was idyllic. Hopefully your replies will give some idea of how common - or not - his experience was.

For context, Jack has tended to see Simon as a god-like presence in his life. Simon is a highly successful business man and Christian leader. He is almost universally admired and has even opened his home to have kids from the foster care system stay for years. It's hard to see him as the architect of an unhappy childhood. However, Jack has spent time in counselling with two counsellors who both know Simon well (it's a small area) and they have independently offered their experiences of having felt controlled/bullied by him in a church setting. They apparently used the phrase 'narcissistic traits'. This was a revelation to Jack.

As far as the punishments go, Jack remembers feeling sick with fear each summer when report cards were sent home. He was the school 'nerd', targeted by bullies and suffering from dyslexia. Jack's teachers told him he was a disgrace to his family. Simon belted him for his poor reports because he believed it was 'a character issue'. As an adult, Jack asked his father why he didn't help him with his prep instead. His father replied that he would have found that 'boring'. Although the punishments were not limited to report card season, Jack still repeatedly says how 'safe' he felt with his father to protect him when he talks about his childhood memories.

Jack doesn't know where his mom was when the punishments were taking place. He remembers her being told to leave the room if she tried to speak when his father was disciplining.

As an adult, Jack successfully joined his father's business. During his twenties, Jack went through a long phase of being informally counselled by Simon and taking his advice to the letter (a lot of people seem to do this). Looking back, Jack is embarrassed by some of the things he did when acting on Simon's advice. Once, he wanted to start a relationship with a female friend he was 'dating' but didn't feel attracted to her. At his father's suggestion, Jack asked her to start wearing more make-up. When she took offence, Simon said she was suffering from 'psychological issues'. It might be relevant to say that Simon has also explained his mom's 'failings' to him in detail (apparently she 'emotionally opted out' of parenting him) and warned Jack not to 'lose control' of his wife when he marries. For some reason, Simon believes good-looking people are usually 'sinful' and thought, on first meeting his future wife (who is startlingly beautiful and younger than him) that she was so beautiful she had to be 'full of sin'.

Counselling has helped Jack to see that Simon isn't perfect today. As an adult, Jack thinks that he and Simon are probably both on the narcissistic spectrum (the difference being that Jack is worried about it). But Jack sees the childhood punishments as an error of judgement in an otherwise healthy upbringing. This leaves him at a loss to understand how he has ended up so lost and unable to 'feel' things, including empathy. As most psychological work seems to start with childhood, Jack finds it difficult to get past the starting gate. It doesn't help that Jack has very few memories of his childhood but has been told many, many stories about his childhood by Simon. Or that almost everyone we know thinks Simon is our state's answer to Billy Graham.

I have tried to suggest that the punishments may be too extreme to be explained away - perhaps they're a sign that Jack's childhood needs weren't being met in the way he thinks they were. He knows my view but it doesn't make sense to him. It's not my job to sort this out and I can really go no further to help. But Simon is a huge fan of second opinions and will think deeply about anything that is reflected back to him here. Thank you for sticking with me to the end (if anybody has)!

lately he's been disgusted by some the things Simon has been saying.

That sounds to me like Jack might have some empathy after all?

‘Spare the rod spoil the child’ is a biblical quote many Christians have used to justify abuse! The abusive ones that is!

I am Christian and I can tell you that this is not how Jesus would have behaved! ‘He who is without sin, cast the first stone’ and ‘let the little children come to me, for these are the kingdom of heaven made’ show that!

Unfortunately bullying narcissists and abusers are drawn to the power that leadership roles in the church offer!

Horrific abuse. Not a doubt.

Unfortunately bullying narcissists and abusers are drawn to the power that leadership roles in the church offer!

Absolutely. It can be very toxic, especially for women and children.

Thank you for the replies, please keep them coming as I think this is about all I can do to help Jack.

There's no doubt he likes attention and he acknowledges that getting counselling 'feeds' that part of him. But he does seem sick of himself (and Simon) in a despairing way.

I have asked him if he was ever subjected to sexual abuse. He said no. There was a high-profile sexual abuse scandal at the church while he was growing up but Simon was the 'good' pastor, not the one who abused. There was a lot of media coverage at the time regarding the 'cult like' nature of the leadership that had allowed the abuse to happen. I don't want to out Jack but let's just say it was't your regular evangelical church. Simon still looks back to those pre-scandal times as halcyon days when they could 'really help people' by putting them on diets and getting them into work etc.

I'd like posters to know that Simon's faith isn't something I recognise as faith. It's just a vehicle for him.

Yes, this situation is real but I understand the scepticism, especially when Jack isn't posting himself.

My "scepticism" is around you OP; its as if you have no idea of what's normal either.

I think this is about all I can do to help Jack - or you could say Jack your family is toxic and abusive, let's report Simon to the authorities and you go NC, run as fast as you can. Rather than hmm, you know Jack, this situation could bear an in-depth discussion. Let's work through it; its not at all clear whether you were abused and obviously if I just say oh it was to do with the church then we're all off the hook.

Why aren't you reporting this Simon character yourself?

I was a child of the 80's and wasn't smacked except once by hand on the backs of the legs. Smacking by hands was very common, and possibly with a stick/other end of a belt, but I was still horrified by it and using the cane was abolished at the end of the 1970's/early 80's because society felt it wasn't appropriate.

What happened to this boy was abusive, not accepted at the time, and had the bruises/bleeding been seen by teachers, may well have been reported to social services. Contrary to what many think, there was social services back then (!) and child sexual abuse and beatings were socially abhorrent and criminal at that time. 'Minor' smacks around the head, legs or on the bum were much more common as a standard discipline method, but NOT what you describe.

I would say Jack has been exposed to severe childhood abuse by Simon and has not had a normal childhood at all, not even for the 80s.

Unfortunately characters such as Simon often find a ready home in churches, with the emphasis on male leaders, biblical teachings, man being head of the home etc.

We had one in our church who was head of the boys youth group. Everyone thought he was an amazing man, especially as he took such good care of his poor wife who was disabled with MS. It was a huge shock when she divorced him - luckily she was friends with a senior church woman and got her story out first. He was having affairs left right and centre and physically abusing her and their kids.

Jack needs help from non-church affiliated counsellors with experience of childhood abuse.

We were threatened with the belt also sent to bed without any tea I was an 80s child this was abuse !

He was profoundly and extensively abused, right up into adulthood. As was his mother.

The "counselling" in adulthood was more abuse.

He's traumatised. Childhood trauma especially manifests in more ways than simply flashbacks. The fact that he has so few memories from then is one striking indication of just how traumatised he is.

Psychological abuse and neglect (and this is both) can be so much harder to heal from, because it's harder to identify as abuse when it's happening to you. Especially if it started as a child.

The books "Living with the Dominator" (Pat Craven) and "Why does he do that?" (Lundy Bancroft) might help him start to see his father's behaviour for what it actually was - all of it, not just the beatings, and including the treatment of his mother. The first of those books has a section on how children are affected by an abusive parent, which might help him start to piece together who he is now and how he reacts to things.

It would also give him a model of a healthy relationship, rather than the abusive relationship his father has modelled for him and manipulated him into recreating in adulthood. It sounds like he has no clue where to even aim for in this respect, and Living with the Dominator is an easy read and sets out clearly what healthy relationships look like. (Albeit that facing the reality of how abusive his father was for the first time will probably be distressing.)

Oh, and if he was a narcissist he wouldn't care about any of the things you listed as bothering him.

The lack of feeling and lack of empathy, in the context of severe childhood trauma, sound like dissociation not narcissism. Which is a trauma symptom and common in survivors of childhood abuse.

A good trauma therapist with a thorough understanding of the dynamics of abuse and child development will be able to help him. It will take work, but healing is absolutely possible if he wants it.

Once he reaches the point of starting to identify and accept the extent of the abuse, which will need to come first, the following books may be helpful for understanding/addressing the trauma: Trauma and Recovery (Judith Herman), Complex PTSD: from surviving to thriving (Pete Walker), The Body Keeps the Score (Bessel can der Kolk).

There are plenty of others though, not everyone finds these particular ones helpful but they all cover childhood trauma. However, I think proper psychological therapy will be critical, I can't see self help books alone being sufficient, other than to aid understanding.

I was Jack, I have been diagnosed and am being treated for PTSD. I am emotionally numb.

Jack may well have been brainwashed into narcissistic behaviours but these are learnt and can be undone, which it sounds like he knows already because narcs cannot usually admit their behaviours.

I agree that this could be disassociation rather than some personality issue. Being treated like this is deeply scarring in more ways than one. I hope your friend gets help.

StaplesCorner Jack knows I think Simon is as mad as a box of frogs and pretty vile. I've had contact with the teenagers living with Simon and they are definitely not being physically abused (neither was Jack at their age). They have been very vocal about not liking previous foster homes but love it with him (and are checked on weekly). I won't report Simon (for what he did to Jack) but it's something for Jack to consider.

In my experience, a smack or slap was "normal", blood and repeated smacks not at all.

I remember teachers using rulers on knuckles or throwing stuff like notebooks at people's heads.

I'm in my 60s and never heard of kids being beaten during - or since - my childhood. The only time my DF smacked me he apologized immediately, blaming his own failings.

Jack has been seriously abused and will need help to process this. Tbh I find it a bit weird that you say:

There's no doubt he likes attention and he acknowledges that getting counselling 'feeds' that part of him.

Of course his counsellor pays exclusive attention to Jack. What on earth else would you expect?

As for the foster kids appearing happy, vulnerable children will put on an act if they feel they must. How many adults who were victims of child abuse remember actually feeling able to tell people about it at the time?

Whether you have met these fostered young adults or not, you are not in a position to state that they are ok. Jack may be a fantasist. Simon may be blameless. You should contact social services regardless and raise concerns as to his suitability as a foster c a rer.

prawn I was responding to an earlier poster who had suggested that Jack was pretending to be worried about himself as a way to get attention. Regarding the teenagers, to make it clear that they would feel able to say if they weren't happy, I gave the information that they had asked to be removed from a string of foster homes before coming to live with Simon and his wife. I have fostered myself and know that the policy here is to visit weekly and ask each child, in a separate room away from the carer, if there are any concerns. These children can and have made use of that opportunity in the past to talk about very minor problems with previous homes. The social workers we know have used Simon and his wife in training videos and have a longstanding relationship with them. No amount of heresay from me would change that but I will raise it with Jack.

I'm now being attacked by some posters for answers to other posters and at this point feel I've done enough to help a friend. I cannot say a big enough thank you to the vast majority of posters who have been so helpful. I know that Jack will also be grateful and will purchase the resources that have been suggested. It's been hard to read about some of the experiences other posters have endured and I wish every one of you healing in your journey.

Thanks again.

It's concerning that Simon is still having teenagers living with him. You do need to address that OP. These children are likely vulnerable and simon seems rather manipulative. Surely they'd just say what he wants to hear?
Jack needs counselling from out of church.

I am a Christian (older than Jack).

I don't think his experience of being parented is at all normal. Not where I am anyway.

Agree with PP, it sounds like Jack would benefit from objective professional help.

to make it clear that they would feel able to say if they wernt happy
Not necessarily. They may not even recognise they are being emotionally abused and manipulated.
Look at Jack who thinks he had an idyllic childhood when it could not be further from the truth.
Those in his care are at risk from suffering as adults by being exposed to this environment. Please report it. You are compliant in the abuse otherwise.

The social workers we know have used Simon and his wife in training videos and have a longstanding relationship with them. No amount of heresay from me would change that but I will raise it with Jack.
You need to report this regardless of whether you feel you will be belived.

I have fostered myself
I’m actually horrified that you are a foster carer and are not reporting this.

I think corporal punishment, the cane, was made illegal in the 60s? I know my school were no longer able to use it or threaten it, though speaking to people who were there before me it was used back then - early 60s, late 50s.

What went on at home was a different matter though. The State/the Government were far more hands off back then. Of course, The Church could do as it pleased, and did; no questions asked.

I suppose I was lucky in that my parents and most of the families I knew were pretty much aga8nst smacking or physical punishment. I got a wack on the back of the thigh twice in my childhood and it was remarkable enough that I remember the shock that mum would do such a thing - that had a greater effect on me than the smack itself. Most children I knew were pretty similar. It was only when I was older that I met anyone whose homelife included greater violence than that.

I don't think Simon's behaviour was really typical, and I do think that he was abusive. Probably still is, just not necessarily in the same way.

Are you all in the US, Redrobin? I ask because you mention Billy Graham and there is much in what you report Simon says that sounds like the GOP/Tea Party/megachurch and fundamentalist churches.

In the US fundamentalist context it's likely that the beating, the undisputed male leadership and the connivance of social workers might not be unusual. Plus the attitudes to the poor and that particular church culture seeing wealth as a sign of God's favour.

I live in a non-fundamentalist area of the US, but have been shocked while travelling to hear children call their parents Sir and Ma'am, and that's only the tip of the iceberg. I have an exBIL from Georgia who is in his 70s (married late) who was beaten by his father for virtually no reason. This would have been in the 40s and 50s. ExBIL was sent to military school (boarding) and then to college in The Citadel, a southern all male and all white (at the time) military-style university.

Jack is afraid he's a narcissist because he doesn't feel he cares about people and often lies to them. He cultivates admiration at work and at church and admits he is addicted to that 'high'. He seems to think like Simon in many ways - e.g., they both assume their wealth is a sign of 'God's favour' and believe poor people have somehow made bad choices. Jack once tried to take advantage of a friend when he was drunk. But he does feel guilty about this. He's afraid having no empathy will turn him into a lonely old man unless he marries someone who he can manipulate (like his mom - but he doesn't respect her). He says he's straight. I think turning 38 and never having been in a loving relationship is scaring him. He feels like he might be a 'toxic' person and has a huge amount of shame about it but no idea what to do next...I don't really know who he is.

Well Jack is gay or bisexual, for starters.
He likes therapy because he wants to reveal himself - there is a drive in everyone to be authentic and to be seen, heard, and accepted - and at the same time he lies to people because he is terrified that being seen and heard will result in violence and rejection, and because of a deep sense of shame reaching into the core of his existence which results in the need to hide, and is is expressed in many ways.

He needs to address the shame.

He needs to address the gay or bi thing. This is piling on another layer of shame.
He needs therapy to deal with the experience of being in a cult.

Again, if he was a narcissist he wouldn't be worried.

I grew up in the 1980s. In no way is what you describe normal. I was smacked, on my bum, 3 times at the most by my mum (never by my dad) and she now admits that it said more about her inability to control her anger than it said about me and my behaviour. She wasn't an angry mum but was going through a difficult time when it happened. It didn't hurt me physically, it shocked me more than anything.

But no, it wasn't normal to be beaten by belt and buckles - I don't know a single person who grew up in this way. I felt loved and cherished, as did my sisters.

Jux I think corporal punishment, the cane, was made illegal in the 60s? you are not going to believe this, as I didn't when I looked it up, it wasn't abolished til 1986 in state schools and 1998 (so nearly 2000!) in public schools in the UK. It was used in my state school in the late 70's but not my secondary from 1980 onwards. It was absolutely horrible and I used to feel sick thinking about children in the headmaster's office as it was always planned out and parents would be present, so utterly traumatic for everyone. My mum wrote a note to say we were never ever to be caned, for which I still love her! Only boys got caned, that's a whole other story.