How unusual was this abuse? Triggering.

[redrobin1000]

Posting in AIBU for the traffic as I need a wide response please. Posting for my male friend - I'll call him Jack. If you can't be bothered to read the whole post as it's overlong, it would still be great if you could read the first paragraph and respond. Thanks.

As a child in the '80s, Jack's father (I'll call him Simon) used to punish him and his siblings using the buckle end of a belt. Jack remembers terrible pain, welts, blood and being unable to sit down comfortably for days afterwards. This took place during the middle school years. He doesn't know what label to put on these experiences.

Jack doesn't know if Simon's parenting was 'normal' for the 80s but he thinks it was. It's important now because Jack is dealing with massive psychological issues (he thinks he's on the narcissistic spectrum). He would like to get a clearer perspective on his childhood, which he has always believed was idyllic. Hopefully your replies will give some idea of how common - or not - his experience was.

For context, Jack has tended to see Simon as a god-like presence in his life. Simon is a highly successful business man and Christian leader. He is almost universally admired and has even opened his home to have kids from the foster care system stay for years. It's hard to see him as the architect of an unhappy childhood. However, Jack has spent time in counselling with two counsellors who both know Simon well (it's a small area) and they have independently offered their experiences of having felt controlled/bullied by him in a church setting. They apparently used the phrase 'narcissistic traits'. This was a revelation to Jack.

As far as the punishments go, Jack remembers feeling sick with fear each summer when report cards were sent home. He was the school 'nerd', targeted by bullies and suffering from dyslexia. Jack's teachers told him he was a disgrace to his family. Simon belted him for his poor reports because he believed it was 'a character issue'. As an adult, Jack asked his father why he didn't help him with his prep instead. His father replied that he would have found that 'boring'. Although the punishments were not limited to report card season, Jack still repeatedly says how 'safe' he felt with his father to protect him when he talks about his childhood memories.

Jack doesn't know where his mom was when the punishments were taking place. He remembers her being told to leave the room if she tried to speak when his father was disciplining.

As an adult, Jack successfully joined his father's business. During his twenties, Jack went through a long phase of being informally counselled by Simon and taking his advice to the letter (a lot of people seem to do this). Looking back, Jack is embarrassed by some of the things he did when acting on Simon's advice. Once, he wanted to start a relationship with a female friend he was 'dating' but didn't feel attracted to her. At his father's suggestion, Jack asked her to start wearing more make-up. When she took offence, Simon said she was suffering from 'psychological issues'. It might be relevant to say that Simon has also explained his mom's 'failings' to him in detail (apparently she 'emotionally opted out' of parenting him) and warned Jack not to 'lose control' of his wife when he marries. For some reason, Simon believes good-looking people are usually 'sinful' and thought, on first meeting his future wife (who is startlingly beautiful and younger than him) that she was so beautiful she had to be 'full of sin'.

Counselling has helped Jack to see that Simon isn't perfect today. As an adult, Jack thinks that he and Simon are probably both on the narcissistic spectrum (the difference being that Jack is worried about it). But Jack sees the childhood punishments as an error of judgement in an otherwise healthy upbringing. This leaves him at a loss to understand how he has ended up so lost and unable to 'feel' things, including empathy. As most psychological work seems to start with childhood, Jack finds it difficult to get past the starting gate. It doesn't help that Jack has very few memories of his childhood but has been told many, many stories about his childhood by Simon. Or that almost everyone we know thinks Simon is our state's answer to Billy Graham.

I have tried to suggest that the punishments may be too extreme to be explained away - perhaps they're a sign that Jack's childhood needs weren't being met in the way he thinks they were. He knows my view but it doesn't make sense to him. It's not my job to sort this out and I can really go no further to help. But Simon is a huge fan of second opinions and will think deeply about anything that is reflected back to him here. Thank you for sticking with me to the end (if anybody has)!

I think I am probably around about the same age as 'Jack', and I can say with 100% confidence that this was NOT normal - neither I or any of my friends were even beaten so hard that we bled.

My mother once slapped me on the arm as I reached for an open flame (we had a coal fire), and my father once hit me across the back of the legs when I was 15, after being brought home by the police having been AWOL for three days.

Both were a combination of anger and fear and I'm fairly certain my parents felt worse than I did about it.

Being beaten until you bleed is/was not normal, ever. It's abuse.

Having just read the entirety of the OP's post, all I can say is HOLY F*CK.

TBH, dreadful as this sounds, the beatings were the least of this guy's problems. He sounds as though he's been entrapped by a cult mindset.

I really hope he's able to access the help he needs and that people around him are shielded from the danger he presents, because he sounds as though he is currently seriously pretty f*cked up. I hope he's not around children, particularly.

I've re-read and the other stuff aside from the physical abuse that Simon has done or told Jack...

It's normal. Within particular Christian settings for these peculiar views - ask the woman to wear make up, don't lose control of your wife, pretty people are sinful Jezebels, accuse someone of psychological issues if they don't do what you say... all incredibly normal. In THAT context.

However it's not normal in the rest of the world. Jack suffered physical, spiritual and emotional abuse. There are many churches out there who don't condone any of this, who if Jack doesn't wish to depart from his faith he can come to terms within a faith setting of what has happened in his childhood. It may be normal in terms of there are many others out there, myself included and we definitely belonged to different churches as I'm not in the states - who went through it. Some stay and continue the cycle. Some leave and find healing in therapy or even other churches, and some don't ever recover.

If Jack is reading... he's on the path to recovery. Stick with it! It's worth it!

Oh and Jack...

If you decide to forgive because you still have your faith. Please please please understand forgiveness doesn't have to mean you pretend it hasn't happened. The truth is important.

It did happen, if you ever forgive - forgive because it came from that mindset but don't ever excuse it because it was normal. It shouldn't have ever been normal.

Also completely with PP that jack has fallen victim to a cult mindset. There is one glorified leader who bullies and hears from God and often comes out with things completely contrary to normality in the rest of the world. It is excused because the group is different to the rest of the world, because the group desires to be set apart from the rest of the world, because they are the only ones who get it right in Gods eyes, they are the only holy people committed to following scripture to the extreme. In their group this is a good thing and the rest of the world is sinful for not taking it so literally.

In the group a childhood like Jack's produces another strong leader like Simon who will not depart from Gods ways

Or actually it produces an indoctrination where Jack can see no wrong and he is mentally enslaved to protecting the group ideaology and thinking for himself is termed "rebellious" rather than courageous by the group.

You can think for yourself Jack. Others have, and haven't been struck down for it by God. Don't fear!

YY to the cult issue.

My mum (born in 1970) experienced v similar. Went NC with her parents when she moved out at 16.
It was seen as extreme by other people who knew but no one ever saw it as bad enough to intervene, including teachers at school who saw the welts. So while I'd say that it wasn common it wasn't unheard of either. It is abuse and should've been recognised as such

My dh's childhood was very much like Jack's. His father was (and still is) a very toxic force in his children's lives. My dh would be beaten with belts, slippers and wooden spoons, usually over very minor slights. His siblings would have to watch it happening, with threats that if they stepped out of line then they would receive the same. Their mum (who is a weak willed character) supported their father and I believe participated in some of these beatings as it was seen as an acceptable way to punish your children in their particular social circle.

These days, my dh's family all act like this was a normal way of life for anyone growing up in the 70s and 80s and they laugh about it at family get togethers. On the outside it seems like no damage has been done, or at least that is what they tell themselves. However, as an outsider looking in I find the family very damaged and unhealthy in their relationships with each other, and his father is still incredibly toxic. There is a constant undercurrent of my dh and his siblings (who are all in their 40s now) still trying to earn approval from their father by sucking up to him constantly, jumping when he tells them to and basically running their whole lives around his unreasonable demands. This man also expects 100% respect at all times yet gives no respect to anyone in return. His wife is very much worn down by him and is usually treated with utter contempt. She is like a kicked dog- verbally abused yet will go running back for more. She takes any bone thrown her way. He humiliates her in front of people and none of her children ever stand up for her.

My oldest SIL has had counselling and is still trying to come to terms with her relationship with her father. She is very erratic with her emotions and finds it hard to deal with anything slightly stressful in her life. The youngest SIL is damaged beyond help and is withdrawn and joyless all of the time. She also finds it hard conducting positive behaviour when in a relationship and all her long term relationships have failed due to her shutting her partners out. My BIL is very much like the younger SIL- he is joyless, sucks all fun out of everything, is controlling and mean, judgemental and the older he gets the more like his father he is becoming.

My dh is a very strong and loyal person, and despite him receiving the majority of the beatings he's the most undamaged by his childhood. I believe this is because of his personality, particularly as a child, of defiance and not willing to be controlled by his father. He's the only one even now that commands any real sign of respect from his father and he's the only one who will regularly stand up to his father. He clashes heavily with his dad at times but he's also the only one his father trusts to do important jobs for him. It's like his father has grudgingly given him respect because he accepted the beatings as a child (and never cried) and wouldn't be broken by them, where as his siblings were seen as the weaker ones because they stood crying from just watching it happen.

Unlike his siblings and mum, my dh will verbalise out loud that his father is an arsehole (whereas his siblings make excuses for him and his toxic behaviour). Don't get me wrong, my dh isn't untouched by what happened to him as a child but he's very stable and loving and affectionate towards me and our children. However, his feelings about his father are tangled and difficult to unravel and whilst he accepts that his father's behaviour was and still is "difficult", he doesn't want to rock the boat by dissecting his childhood. It's very difficult to help him or give him advice on how to currently deal with his dad because his feelings of loyalty and gaining approval are so deeply ingrained in him.

I guess, going back to your OP, that no, this type of abuse is not normal and wasn't even back then (despite what his parents think). It's just so sad that these acts have such far reaching consequences and that these people in their 40s are still dealing with their trauma all these years later.

Abusers tend to be controlling and manipulative, whether or not they use physical violence.

Extreme physical violence is, unfortunately, not as unusual as we might hope. But of course that doesn't mean it is acceptable.

The psychological consequences for victims of extreme abuse are quite varied. However, no reputable counsellor should work with a client if they know the client's parents - and it is especially problematic if the client discloses childhood abuse.

Mountains of literature on child abuse has been published since the 1980s, from academic research to popular self-help books. The latter might be more useful to someone like Jack. Or he could post here himself.

I'm 46. I remember in the late 70s/early80s one of my friends was frightened of her Dad because he would hit her with the buckle end of a belt. Even then that was shocking and they were one of the obviously dysfunctional families on the estate. Everyone knew there was something not right in that house.

Simon was extremely abusive and should be in prison for what he did. What he did was in no way normal, and I would class that environment as horrific and very damaging. Jack should read up on things like FOG (fear, obligation, guilt), and realise that his father is a nasty piece of work. Sorry you've had to endure that Jack.

Simon sounds narcissistic and abusive but why would Jack be? He might have picked up some dodgy beliefs and behaviours from Simon but they are learned. If he's worried about being a narcissist, he isn't one. That's not how their minds work.

Thanks for all the replies, especially those posters who have gone into detail about their own experiences. I will print them out and pass them on to Jack.

To the posters who asked where his mom was while all this was going on: She is the child of missionary parents and grew up as the only white child in a jungle in South America. She came back home as a teenager and was married, with a baby in her arms, before she was twenty-one. Simon reminisces that he made a 'pact' with God that he would break off their engagement if there was 'one bad mood' before their wedding. After they were married, he wouldn't let Jack's mom be alone with her own mom unless he was also present because she was apparently 'very controlling'!!

Jack is afraid he's a narcissist because he doesn't feel he cares about people and often lies to them. He cultivates admiration at work and at church and admits he is addicted to that 'high'. He seems to think like Simon in many ways - e.g., they both assume their wealth is a sign of 'God's favour' and believe poor people have somehow made bad choices. Jack once tried to take advantage of a friend when he was drunk. But he does feel guilty about this. He's afraid having no empathy will turn him into a lonely old man unless he marries someone who he can manipulate (like his mom - but he doesn't respect her). He says he's straight. I think turning 38 and never having been in a loving relationship is scaring him. He feels like he might be a 'toxic' person and has a huge amount of shame about it but no idea what to do next. And lately he's been disgusted by some the things Simon has been saying. They were discussing the high cost of medicines and Jack was bemoaning the lives that could be saved if drugs were cheaper. Simon objected that 'those people wouldn't understand that they had to stop having so many children' so it wouldn't be a good idea. Simon says these things behind closed doors, never on a pulpit.

It does seem like Jack would like to change but I don't know if he would really like to feel 'ordinary' and devote himself to one person. He likes to see lots of different people and listens to them talk about their problems (!!!). He loves going to counselling. There is a nicer person somewhere inside him because he genuinely wants to make a difference with his life and become more 'authentic'. He can seem almost frighteningly malleable and open to new ideas. But then he's back to 'smooth Jack' the next time I see him. I lead a study group with him but I don't think I have anything more to offer him in the way of help. Even knowing all this about him, I don't really know who he is.

Jack has a lot if issues. Whether there's any way out of it, I'm not sure. If he has narcissistic or sociopathic tendencies they can't be counselled away.

Based on your latest post I would be asking myself whether his concerns about his behaviour are definitely genuine or just a way to gain attention and manipulate.

Just to add: either way, I don't think you can help him and you should be careful not to get too drawn into it.

Yes I was hit with the buckle end of a belt in the late 70's/80's. I didnt think it was normal parenting as it didn't seem to happen to my friends. I knew my Dad was very strict and thta it just didnt feel right. I now know my Dad is very domineering and controlling.

So no it wasn't normal parenting

I grew up in the 80s and 90s, my parents never once struck me at all. And if I'd heard that a friend was being beaten until they bled by a parent i would've been horrified and probably told an adult (teacher, parent, someone who i thought could help).

I'm a child of the 70s and 80s and I was smacked/hit, as a fair few of my friends were too....not as bad as Jack's though. I've never laid a finger on my DC as I think it's abuse.

Cult survivor. He needs specialist counselling preferably not from the church.

Is this a test case for a counselling course? If it is it's crap .

Is clear that Jack was the victim of serious physical abuse and is say psychological abuse too. It really doesn’t matter if that happened in the 1980s or last night.
Beating a child/hitting a child with a belt buckle is disgusting and is 100% not acceptable.

The odd poster questioning whether this is real: I know that it can be. My own childhood was similar. Some evangelical Christians behave like this. They do terrible things to their children, physically and psychologically. It's like a cult. I'm in my 40s and am only now fully acknowledging what was done to me by my parents.

Jack needs to see better counsellors. He has been subjected to severe abuse and has Stockholm Syndrome from the sounds of it.

My brothers were belted with the leather part of my Dads belt when they were little, across their bare buttocks. Or they were smacked. I as the girl was never smacked, but then I never did anything wrong, I was too scared to. He never used the buckle or made them bleed but it’s just as bad n my opinion.

My Dad is a narcissist, he denies ever using a belt on my brothers, but he was frequently beat with the wooden washing pole that my gran used to stir her washing, he was so badly bruised at 8 that they kept him off school for a month. That was sixties, so child abuse was frowned upon then, even if smacking wasn’t.

There is a book called ‘leaving the fold’. One of the issues she addresses is abuse justified by religious reasoning. She is a therapist as offers Skype sessions but is quite expensive. There is also a therapy workbook people can do alone or with their own therapist.