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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Was your daughter on a school trip at Alton towers today?

675 replies

Zzz1234 · 29/06/2018 18:42

Was she late for her bus? did the teacher lose his rag at her in the middle of the entrance area? If so is she ok?

Can’t believe what I saw today, two girls were 20 mins late back, yes they should be in trouble but they did not deserve some teacher screaming at them, I was 75 metres away and could hear everything I felt so sorry for the girls. I was in a queue and I wasn’t talking about it to the other people in the queue, I was about to go over, but another teacher did.

Would love the name of the school to make a complaint to. Heat is not an excuse, I have lived in hot countries and never saw a teacher lose it like he did.

I know it’s not Aibu but posted here for traffic....

OP posts:
spotthedot · 30/06/2018 21:43

I do t think people are getting the “lifetime of public humiliation “ reference. A previous poster had said the screaming was to teach the children an important life lesson. That life lesson was questioned sarcastically as preparing them for a lifetime of public humiliation.

Timeisslippingaway · 30/06/2018 21:47

@dragonara53

You do realise people chose to become teachers?

mathanxiety · 30/06/2018 21:56

Thecrabbypatty, I take it from your comment on googling that you have your own concept of what it means, and that you tend to favour that over any sort of detailed or authoritative analysis.

So at the risk of boring you to death, here goes...

There are all sorts of legal ramifications to being 'in loco parentis'. The role confers certain rights and there are also responsibilities, among them protection from harm. There is in addition the duty to safeguard the human rights of students.

The ins and outs of 'in loco parentis' - how teachers are expected to conduct themselves in relation to students - are governed by law, unlike all the myriad interactions between children and parents, where other parameters are in operation. Above all, a teacher is expected to do what a 'reasonable parent' would do, not a parent who thinks it's ok to go apeshit.

The role is custodial and tutelary. It allows for reasonable and appropriate force/physical contact to be used in order to protect a student or students or staff from harm. It does not encompass losing your shit, or even pretending to, because of the duty to protect from harm.

While acting 'in loco parentis' teachers and school authorities also act as surrogates for the state in many respects. Teachers are not fully engaged in the parent role therefore. There is acknowledgement that the pastoral responsibility in the area of safeguarding, for instance, is to the students, not their parents, and teachers are not acting in the interest of the parents when acting in a safeguarding role. Teachers in addition may search a student's belongings and even a student's person for forbidden or illegal items such as drugs or weapons. The role as surrogate for the state illustrates that teachers are held to a higher standard than parents and expected to exercise a judgement that is not only professional but open to scrutiny. Above all, the aim of preventing harm is underlined in these roles.

It's not just a matter of nose wiping, hand holding, and being an adult helper, and it's certainly not a matter of doing what you assume a parent would do, given sufficient provocation.

I have seen parents verbally abusing children, and I have seen the effects on those children. You seem to assume all parents lose their shit, and you seem to assume all parents would be happy to let you do. I do not think that assumption would stand up to the requirement to act as the 'reasonable parent' and the overarching interest of teachers in preventing harm. If you want to keep on arguing that loud public humiliation is ok for a parent to do and therefore it is fine for you, it's your dime, as they say.

But be aware that as a teaching professional, you are not covering yourself in glory by doing so.

www.teachers.org.uk/files/the-law-and-you--8251-.pdf
The NUT digest of what in loco parentis means in the context of school trips:

"In practice, this means that teachers must provide supervision of the pupils throughout school journeys or visits according to professional standards and common sense. Reasonable steps must betaken to avoid exposing pupils to dangers which are foreseeable and beyond those with which the particular pupils can reasonably be expected to cope. This does not imply constant 24-hour direct supervision. The need for direct supervision has to be judged by reference to the risks involved in the activity being undertaken. It may not always be sufficient to give instructions to pupils. The possibility that there may be challenging behaviour has to be taken into account, together with the risk the pupils may encounter if they disobey instructions. Equally, teachers may take account of the ages and levels of personal responsibility of their pupils...

...Teachers should not participate in journeys or visits which they believe are not being adequately prepared and organised. Any concerns should be raised with the head teacher.

Where journeys are organised within schools, responsibility for establishing that proper preparation has been made and that proper supervision will be provided is ultimately with the head teacher. Head teachers may delegate this function to the educational visits coordinator (EVC). Head teachers should prohibit journeys and visits if they are not satisfied with the arrangements made..."

www.teachers.org.uk/files/the-law-and-you--8251-.pdf

It seems to me that a trip to Alton Towers is a ridiculous thing for any school to contemplate, given this NUT advice, and so it is reasonable to question the professional judgement of the teachers who planned and participated in it. It has all the ingredients of a disaster.

Ohmydayslove · 30/06/2018 22:00

a lifetime of public humiliation

Jesus H Christ are you seriously a parent? If so please please stop. Think and maybe change. While your kids can still benefit from you changing.

spotthedot · 30/06/2018 22:07

Ohmydayslove Read my post above, you have missed the sarcasm 🙄

Ohmydayslove · 30/06/2018 22:12

Oh sorry spot Grin

Teachers saved my dds life following a fatal school trip crash when another teacher died. At risk of their lives . Their bravery was truly incredible so always side with the teachers and may have missed it.

Just truly pisses me off when people slag off teachers.

Ohmydayslove · 30/06/2018 22:50

And name change

StaplesCorner · 30/06/2018 22:56

But ohmydays the OP and as far as I can see other posters are not slagging off teachers, the OP is talking about what one teacher did on one day. I am sorry to hear of your terrible experience and thank god your DD was ok, obviously the adults - teachers - who saved her were amazing individuals. but surely you aren't suggesting that all teachers are wonderful because of that, any more than the OP is not suggesting all teachers are arseholes because of what she witnessed.

manicmij · 30/06/2018 23:05

I can hear kids screaming in gardens, bouncing noise from trampoline, adults talking in gardens all that 200 mts away from my house.

strawberrisc · 01/07/2018 06:05

Just read through your posts. I hope you never TA again. Certainly not in English. I wouldn’t be a teacher for a million pounds. You literally have no idea. “Kids get shouted at”. Wind your neck in.

psicat · 01/07/2018 06:07

Hmmm I completely get the teacher being hot/fed up/possibly trying to remember what they were wearing for the police report and so being very cross when they eventually turned up - but. I work with often very difficult customers of all ages. From primary age kids to the elderly. Often people with mental health problems or personality disorders. They have been every possible type of rude, frustrating, late!, deliberately obstructive etc etc.
I have never lost my temper to the point of screaming, I would say I have genuinely lost my temper a couple of times in far too many years and spoken sharply for a moment but never shouted. It achieves nothing and of course I would get into trouble for it too!

I'm not saying this to be ooo aren't I great, I don't lose my temper but to point out - would that behaviour be okay in any other job? Would it be acceptable for any of us to scream at our clients? It doesn't matter if I am hot, ill, worried about something at home - tough shit, I cannot lose it that way.

I also think vast majority of teachers are amazing, what ever age they teach and a good teacher can change someone's life Flowers

borntobequiet · 01/07/2018 06:59

200 m is two football pitches long. It would be impossible to hear even a shouted conversation with clarity at that distance.
As a rowing coach, I wouldn’t have been able to project my voice unaided 75 m (as given in the original post), and I could really shout loudly.

Masterbuilders · 01/07/2018 07:37

Let’s hope no one shouts at the poor little darlings.

www.walesonline.co.uk/news/pupils-top-welsh-school-trashed-14845608

EleanorLavish · 01/07/2018 07:44

That sounds more like a stupid mistake and accident than deliberately trashing the monument, tbf.

MoonsAndJunes · 01/07/2018 09:54

That sounds more like a stupid mistake and accident than deliberately trashing the monument, tbf.
A mistake?!

Mosschopz · 01/07/2018 10:21

I was that teacher, some 5 years ago, stood on a hill at the main entrance in furious heat, no shade, pregnant waiting for a group of lads who couldn’t be bothered to keep track of time. Every minute felt like 5 as I struggled to keep my temper and cool. No apology from the kids or parents on return.

cariadlet · 01/07/2018 10:35

My dd's going on a school trip to Thorpe Park in a couple of weeks. I was just going to leave everything to the teachers, but after reading this thread I'll be damned sure to remind her to get back to the coach on time.

If she had a genuine reason for being late (eg ride breaking down) and phoned to apologise straight away then I'd be sympathetic and would hope her teachers would be too.

But if she was late because she couldn't be bothered to keep an eye on the time then I'd be furious with her and would be very happy for the teachers to give her a bollocking in public.

dorisdog · 01/07/2018 16:15

I'm pretty 'yay teachers' but I'm also 'yay teenagers.' Can't believe some of the horrible comments being made about these girls that no-one knows anything about. Someone even calling them 'twats!' There should totally be appropriate consequences if pupils have done something wrong, but screaming at them isn't it, imo. There seems to be a lot of harsh anti-teenage vibes about these days.

mathanxiety · 01/07/2018 16:25

I feel that too on MN, Doris.

Studentwife · 01/07/2018 17:57

It is so refreshing to hear almost everyone on here is using common sense. So very pleasing to hear siding with the teacher for a change!

Timeisslippingaway · 01/07/2018 18:41

I don't know why anyone would congratulate a teacher for losing their rag in the way OP described. In no other profession would this be acceptable but yes it's so "refreshing" to hear of a teacher who can't control himself.

Littlepleasures · 01/07/2018 18:58

When training as a teacher, I was told that the teacher who keeps their voice quiet and respectful as a matter of course, will have better behaviour management and respect from the children.

That said there are times when the quiet reasonable reproach is not appropriate and only a “bollocking” will make the point. When children hear the quiet, fair, reasonable teacher appear to lose their temper, they know the recipient of the “bollocking” must have done something truly awful and deserves such a dressing down. The teacher who loses his/her temper all the time is ignored. Which of the two types of teacher did you see? Could you tell?

A previous head teacher of mine was the most child- centred professional I’ve ever come across to the extent that children with extreme behaviour who had failed in other schools were sent to his school as a last chance and succeeded there 90% of the time. Once or twice a year the school would go silent when he raised his voice to a pupil. It was so unlike him that the miscreant took notice, as did those watching. They trusted and respected his judgement. He wasn’t losing his rag, he was doing what, from his years of experience, he believed to be what the child needed at the time, for their own good.

I think while we have become so (rightly) concerned with treating children with respect at all times we have forgotten that it is also important to teach children their duty to respect others. These girls appeared to be totally lacking in respect for their classmates and teachers and deserved their dressing down. In these days of mobile phones, if there had been a genuine reason for their delay and they’d let their teacher know, I’m sure the teacher would have handled it differently.

TovaGoldCoin · 01/07/2018 19:00

It's this kind of thing that makes teachers not to want to take some children on school trips, and residentials. The sheer dread on doing a headcount and one littke bugger has moved, and you think you've lost oneConfused

GabsAlot · 01/07/2018 19:24

i dont think kids are shouted at enough

thats why theyre runing amok they know they can do what they like and noone can do a thing about it

mathanxiety · 02/07/2018 07:33

You don't teach children anything about their duty to respect others by letting yourself down in public while humiliating them.