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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

I think DH is upholding the glass ceiling (not DIY). WIBU?

362 replies

Pa1oma · 29/06/2018 13:04

DH has a company which employs maybe a thousand people, of which probably about 40% are women. It’s not a traditionally male industry like construction, however, in 15 years, there has never been a female director. Whenever I’ve asked him why this is, he says he would like this to change but no women seem to apply.

Then last night I heard him in the phone to someone discussing restructuring the board of directors and his words were, “She’d be worth consideration, but she’ll probably have a baby or something soon” Confused. When he got off the phone, I told him what I’d heard and asked him if he knew for a fact that this woman was pregnant. He said, “Well I wouldn’t know but she’s in her late 30s and I think she’s been discussing it”. Hmm

His argument is he’s not going to risk over £100k on someone if he’s not sure they’re going to see “the next phase” through. My argument is, he is not in a position to presume anything about anyone. WIBU?

OP posts:
ichbineinstasumer · 30/06/2018 20:57

I think the most depressing thing about this thread is the age of the DH - of course I encounter these attitudes constantly in the workplace among senior men, but had hoped that as my own generation replaced the one that went before, that these attitudes would go too.

Of course, some women don't help themselves either - like the one I interviewed last week who, on being asked why she wanted to join our workplace, started talking about how she now had a little boy and therefore wanted to work in a less pressured environment. No please - I want to hear what interests you about this job/workplace, I do not want to hear about your domestic arrangements.

Aeroflotgirl · 30/06/2018 21:08

Sorry for being such a disappointment and letting the side down, but my families needs come first, and this is the area I enjoy and choose to work. I could not work in dh line of work (computing) it is boring and I don't enjoy it, I am not a corporate person.

Teacher22 · 30/06/2018 21:21

A small business can go under if one piece of the jigsaw doesn’t fit but if the OP’s DH employs a thousand people he can probably put contingency plans in for a maternity cover if the woman is worth it. It is a rational decision. He needs to think it through and, if the woman is worth the £100,000 , he should cover her maternity. If not, he shouldn’t. If the business goes splat a thousand people will lose their incomes, homes and security, not to mention the OP.

LipstickHandbagCoffee · 30/06/2018 21:31

Aeroflot, read my posts carefully ,at no point have I instructed you or anyone else to return to work or your compel your dh to give up work

I’m looking at the observable stats that it is predominantly women who give up work. I am of opinion society,culture,partners,family all apply influence on women to give up working. By a country mile it is women who are stepping down,not men

Pippylou · 30/06/2018 21:40

I've found this thread very depressing for all sorts of reasons.

I've only ever really worked PT (due to a variety of reasons including facilitating my DH in his better paying job). I was equally committed (re quality of work) when at work and with intelligent management, PT works really well (my DH and many of his colleagues work PT ironically now). I just don't do well working long hours and office politics. So I can see why women give up completely with the fuckwittery once they try to manage hours and patterns of work after having kids.

I did give up, stopped at home and have built an entirely good life, running my own business. Have ended up better off in all senses, good mental health, financially, etc but seemingly lacking respect from the people on this thread that only value corporate life.

Basically, all this inclusion and diversity stuff is lip service if the only thing that matters is long hours. Impacts on the neurodiverse as well as women, and/or men wanting to work different patterns of work. If people aren't given the chance, how will anyone know? The boys who got jobs when I didn't would happily tell me they were planning moving jobs from the company that recruited them, when I wasn't recruited due to age and femaleness, so possible maternity leave.

I've never actually seen it but I heard that I was cited as an example in how my ex-profession loses talent in a report by a senior member of the profession. I was discriminated against from the very outset and it's a bit like the #metoo stuff, until it happens to you, you just don't bloody believe it...mind you, just looked at the stats for women in that profession and it's still woeful, so it's not surprising. I was hoping it had improved since I gave up getting a bloody head whacking it against a brick wall. It wasn't fair but I was the only one getting hurt...and that's why people give up, leave and never come back.

BitOfFun · 30/06/2018 22:04

I wouldn't do it this weekend, mind, @TheseArePearls. Too many silly threads. But I'm sure it would be very interesting for people.

pollymere · 30/06/2018 22:07

Point out that a man might have to quit to care for his sick mother. When he looks incredulous point out that it's just as possible as a woman having a baby. He's also assuming she can, unless she's pregnant he's making huge imaginary leaps against her. Maybe the man they choose will suddenly decide he wants to join the circus, or quit to become a full time Dad. He's living in the dark ages!

Aeroflotgirl · 30/06/2018 22:09

Yes it is mostly women, however they are in different situations, single mothers, maybe like me, their partner earns more because of their line of work, maybe they want to stay at home with their kids, mothers tend to have that closer bond with the kids. Those who want to stay at home to look after their children should not feel bad about it.

LipstickHandbagCoffee · 30/06/2018 22:13

mothers tend to have that closer bond with the kids Actually no
And it’s unfortunate you’ve been socialised into believing that

lulu12345 · 30/06/2018 22:22

Point out that a man might have to quit to care for his sick mother...[or] suddenly decide he wants to join the circus, or quit to become a full time Dad.

Sorry but all of these situations are much much less likely than the situation of a 30-something woman in a long term relationship becoming pregnant. That's statistical fact. OP will lose all credibility if she starts pushing the argument that a man could leave for any sort of reason. OP's husband knows this full well, and remember women can also leave to care for a parent or join the circus or whatever. The point is that maternity leave is an additional risk with women that doesn't (yet) really exist for men. No point pretending otherwise just because we wish it so.

JolieFleurie · 30/06/2018 22:30

You could point out that if the woman is the best person for the job, she’ll carry on being worth investing in even post dc, and if she moved to NYC for the job which showed huge commitment, she may well be the higher earner and have a partner that wants to cut their hours or dual parent.

I tend to agree that it’s silly to ignore the biological realities, but also he’s thinking with the mindset of the 1970s, surely if she had dc and underperformed, they could address that, at that point?

dorisdog · 01/07/2018 10:17

What a nightmare. I'd be really upset to find that out, op. I hope you find a way to navigate it.

I was recently granted 3 months off work (unpaid) to care for a relative. There can be all kinds of unexpected reasons why people need to take time away from work wharever their gender. (Although of course caring roles do still unfairly end up with women, mostly) Having worked in the mental health services for many years i feel even more aware of this! Tbh I find the whole concept of excessive 'presenteeism' in workplaces detrimental. This isn't victorian times! By now we should all be able to let go of our careers from time to time without having to experience financial hardship.

Underconstruction · 01/07/2018 12:12

I hope the overlooked woman will realise she’s working for a misogynist and move on. I doubt he’d find anyone better than a working mum, loyal if treated well over maternity and efficient at work because she won’t be wasting her day bragging by the coffee machine when she could be getting her work done then home to her family. Your husband’s company will ultimately go down the pan because the rest of the world is moving on and mining twice the talent pool.

LipstickHandbagCoffee · 01/07/2018 12:29

Most likely the op husband will continue onward,being a superficially charming caveman
As unfortunately demonstrated on this thread there are people who share his odious views
His lifestyle and arrangements are replicated in many families.alpha male with housewife. He will most likely continue on unchallenged

I’d really like to think the NYC candidate has a great career progression,that her ability is noted and remunerated. But this is RL not the hallmark channel

welshmist · 01/07/2018 12:37

I was talking to someone yesterday who said her friend who works for Wirral Council is on 120k a year and spends half the year in Florida so perhaps if the company is big enough it should be able to manage.

Pa1oma · 01/07/2018 13:09

I casually brought it up with him this morning because someone on here was talking about the “Big 4” companies so I asked him what they were. Then I said, “do you know there are very few female directors in those companies” and made out there was a MN thread about it. He said he wasn’t surprised because in the top FTSE 100 companies there are easily less than 10% women directors, he “estimates”. So I asked why he has never had any. He said it’s hard to find the right skills set, experience or commitment levels at middle management level with women. Also directors do not switch about much, so it’s a challenge to replace a man in a role with a proven track record, simply for the sake of inclusivity. So I mentioned again about the woman he seemed to be overlooking. I said she could be infertile for all you know (I don’t wish that on her, of course, but it was just to make a point). Plus, I said men have babies too but it’s easy to take everything for granted when you have a wife at home doing everything so your work isn’t impacted in any way. He is looking a bit baffled tbh. He actually asked me if it’s time if the month! I said it’s nothing to do with time if the month, it’s a valid question and I’m asking him to look into this and give it serious consideration. He says he will, but it’s “complicated”. He has a lot of decisions to make because basically he’s trying to extricate himself from full involvement in this company and hand it over to this other guy so he can focus on other non-exec roles and investments. Anyway, we will see, but I’m watching.

OP posts:
lulu12345 · 01/07/2018 13:25

Well done OP.. keep on at him!

Nancydrawn · 01/07/2018 13:30

Oh, OP, I'm actually kind of laughing at the idea of him responding to your reasonable critique by asking if you have your period--it kind of sums the whole thing up. It's ridiculous (I mean, horrific, but to a comical degree).

It sounds like he has some antediluvian concepts of women and their place in the world. It also sounds like he doesn't really think of them as anywhere near equal to men. My guess (again) is he thinks very well of women and treats them with dignity and kindness--as long as they're in their place (as he imagines it to be).

Without being the least bit patronizing, I'm impressed that you're facing this head-on. I'd also think about ways in which this might have percolated down to your kids, both your son and your daughters. It's very unlikely that they all haven't internalized this idea to some extent or another. Your husband is responsible for himself: you are not Curator of His Ideas and his ability to see women as people is not your responsibility, but the kids of course are. Not an easy thing to undo, but worth it for both them and you.

LipstickHandbagCoffee · 01/07/2018 13:32

You present a cogent well formed POV,and he asks is it your time if the month
He’s a caveman,and no he’ll not change or act on your suggestions.He’ll fob you off
Like he fobs off the NYC candidate and all women

Aeroflotgirl · 01/07/2018 14:23

Well done op. Underneath the 'modern' 'equality for all exterior, I a mysigenistic and sexist pig. Blaming it on your period, when you are trying to have s reasonable discussion with him.

Dljlr · 01/07/2018 14:26

So when you try to continue the discussion he actually responds by asking if you're menstruating Confused Jesus wept.

CyclicalAnger · 01/07/2018 15:20

In some cases, men are just better in certain roles than women and vice versa. Most firefighters are Men because they are physical stronger in general. Most nurses are women as they are more nuturing by nature in genreral. Women want ot have it all and scream bloody murder when they don't get thier way. Most computer based and mathematical based university courses are overwelhming subscribed by men, and therefore it stands to reason that the jobs they require those skills would be filled mostly by men.

BitOfFun · 01/07/2018 15:32

Why, hello there MrPa1oma!

LipstickHandbagCoffee · 01/07/2018 15:37

Well goodness you’ve got a lot of gender cliches going on there,wrong of course. Maybe hook up with Aeroflot she’s partial to gender stereotypes too. Your posts reveal how you have internalised and repeat gender stereotypes

*Most nurses are women as they are more nuturing by nature in general. No. Women are socialised and consciously and unconsciously encouraged into caring roles.

Women want ot have it all and scream bloody murder when they don't get thier way bloody women with the screaming, equality this, fairness that.will they not be quiet and just accept their lot

Most firefighters are Men because they are physical stronger in general I’ll credit you said firefighters not firemen. See you’ve internalised something. firefighting is skilled,it’s technical,it has a community prevention role it’s not all muscle strength. But do note the training is rigorous

YankeeDad · 01/07/2018 16:03

OP - That he pulled out "time of month" is so idiotic that it would be pretty funny, if it were not such a vulgar way to dismiss women as supposedly less rational than men. Men are just as capable of irrationality as women - we are all primates, not robots. Just try bringing bad news to the male boss the day after his favourite football team has lost an important match.

More seriously though, maybe your DH is genuinely baffled if he is not used to having you challenge his assumptions about what women can or cannot do. Give him a chance. He seems to think of himself as reasonable. Lipstick is assuming that he can only be an irredeemable caveman, but maybe he is just clueless. I was, myself, until some of my brilliant female colleagues helped me to see certain things. If he loves you and is enough parts reasonable, then maybe he will want to listen and will then slowly understand certain things. If he does, it could even make him both happier and more successful.

An assumption that could potentially sink his company seems embedded in what he said about how "it’s hard to find the right skills set, experience or commitment levels at middle management level with women". The way in which "commitment" is used here suggests he may think that only a person who can work long hours and is available 24/7 to the company can fill a middle management role effectively.

Many roles require a degree of flexibility, but a company whose success depends on 24/7 commitment, particularly at the middle management level, is doomed to failure. The most talented and capable men and women for these roles will have options other than his company, and many of them will increasingly insist to have time with their families. In the long-term, if he wants to have good people taking care of his company's business, he will need to change the culture in order to enable that.

If he wants to hire someone who can figure out how structure middle management roles in a way that allows high calibre delivery of the work at the same time as having a life outside of the office, then other things being equal, he's more likely to get that by hiring a woman. Because women usually take on more childcare / domestic responsibilities than men, I expect that more women than men have figured out how to manage "work-life balance", if only by necessity. If my hypothesis is correct, then if he hires a woman instead of a man, he's more likely to get someone who has figured out how to organise and prioritise their work effectively and avoid wasting their time at work. He's then also more likely to get someone who can help others to do the same.

If he gets a person (who may well be a woman) who brings a different assumption set about how to do the work, who is more willing to ask "why do we still need to do X", maybe he will even find it easier, himself, to identify things he can eliminate from his own stack of work, and thus free up more time for activities outside of his firm, which you said he personally wants to do.

Note - in order for this to work he would probably need to find a way to hire (at least) two women into senior roles - having just one woman in a roomful of men is a difficult spot to be in, especially given that men are more likely to interrupt / cut off / shout down anyone with whom they disagree. He would probably also need to change how he listens: the number of times I've heard a woman's point adopted by the group and attributed to the man who repeated it is embarrassing. He would need to show leadership by calling that out (e.g. "Actually Fred, that was Gina's point, and I'm glad you agree that it was an excellent point. Thank you for expanding on it.")