I think DH is upholding the glass ceiling (not DIY). WIBU?

[Pa1oma]

DH has a company which employs maybe a thousand people, of which probably about 40% are women. It’s not a traditionally male industry like construction, however, in 15 years, there has never been a female director. Whenever I’ve asked him why this is, he says he would like this to change but no women seem to apply.

Then last night I heard him in the phone to someone discussing restructuring the board of directors and his words were, “She’d be worth consideration, but she’ll probably have a baby or something soon” . When he got off the phone, I told him what I’d heard and asked him if he knew for a fact that this woman was pregnant. He said, “Well I wouldn’t know but she’s in her late 30s and I think she’s been discussing it”.

His argument is he’s not going to risk over £100k on someone if he’s not sure they’re going to see “the next phase” through. My argument is, he is not in a position to presume anything about anyone. WIBU?

Yes it’s very dinosaurish and thanks for that feedback because its hard to properly gauge when you’ve been out the workforce for a long time.

So what do you intend to do? This is all coming across a bit 'Let them eat cake'

The stats at his company spoke for themselves even before you overheard the overt sexism/discrimination.

If he was actually interested in equality - in terms of sex, race or other aspects - he would have been investigating the issues at his company and actively seeking to address them, in consultation with people from and beyond his workforce.

Apart from everything else, failing to seek and bring on talent from big chunks of the “pool” makes poor business sense.

Nancy - yes exactly, I think it’s unconscious with him. It’s easier to not question your ingrained attitudes. He think of himself as decent and a gentleman - and he is to all appearances. I always thought he was fair and open-minded too, but now I’m not sure. As I say, sexism hidden in plain sight. So much so, I never even saw this aspect of my own husband.

I think your DH is one of the last redoubts. Help him to modernise and get with the new world.

Excellent advice.

OP - do this for the women of Mumsnet. Get this woman the promotion she deserves! You can do it!

I’m going to tell him that from my point of view it’s ridiculous to not have women directors and it makes his company and the other one look poor. I should have challenged him before on this and I don’t know why I didn’t.

You seem to cite him being supportive of you SAH as evidence of him supporting equality. But the set up you have at home is traditional and didn’t challenge his assumptions. Would he have actively supported you to WoH and progress a career, and done more domestic work and parenting? I somehow doubt it.

Not great that your DS was arguing that women made up the gender pay gap!

Also not great that your H told your DS to plan on the basis of being sole breadwinner: what if DS’s future partner, should they have DC, wishes to work FT or for them both to work PT? Or if DS wanted to share the parenting and domestic work as well as earning?

My set up is also traditional because she works in a field that earns him more, I am social care/community work, so it made sense for me to stay at home.

I’m going to tell him

Well that's great of course. What makes you think that he will listen to you in a matter that is outside the family domain?

I do hope that your husband listens. TBH I doubt he will but it almost doesn't matter. Times are changing and the thing about professional life is that people get overtaken when they aren't adaptive. To you this will have no effect - your DH has made his money and doesn't need to adapt. It's important that he isn't a blocker though - if he's being a dinosaur then maybe it's time for him to cash in his chips. Everyone has to someday.

Of course the OP's husband's stance is wrong (and illegal). Of course he should be challenged on that.

But to those who state SAHMs perpetuate the patriarchy - no, I'm afraid this is your own internalised misogyny speaking. Nothing perpetuates the patriarchy like the devaluation of care, hence why most caring professions are female dominated and grossly underpaid. I could progress much higher in my career had I not chosen to cut back on hours once DC came along. DH has rapidly risen in his. This was my choice - mine, and mine alone. Had I decided to progress and work long hours to do so, DH would have fully supported this. I WANTED to care for my own children, but see examples of how that is frowned upon every day - wasted my education etc etc. There's not a true choice (when feminism should be about true choice) because the only value placed on a life in a patriarchal society is that of monetary worth and career status. So all women should be working as to not do so is worthless. And therein lies the problem - care not valued as its historically women who provide it.
And some "feminists" are supporting this by criticising SAHMs. Sigh.

I take your point, yoga, but it's not really a choice if your boss makes it for you.

To be clear I am not criticising SAHMs. Each to their own. It's interesting how different societies respond. I was reading about India where women have 25% penetration into the workforce, ghastly record on abuse of women, the way women get routinely raped is disgusting. And so on

So it seems to me that the position for women will not improve unless women get economic power - as it has for women in Iran. Of course I would like caring responsibilities to be acknowledged and remunerated fairly. But the position won't change until women have economic clout.

I take your point, yoga, but it's not really a choice if your boss makes it for you.

This is so true. Years ago I was about to do some long-haul travel for work while pregnant and my then boss (he is now a good friend although many years older than me) asked me was I sure I should travel. Just that - I said yes and we moved on. Next day he came up to me and apologised. He had repeated the conversation to his wife and she fucked him out of it for infantalising me.

Nothing perpetuates the patriarchy like the devaluation of care, hence why most caring professions are female dominated and grossly underpaid.

But I agree completely with this.

So it seems to me that the position for women will not improve unless women get economic power - as it has for women in Iran. Of course I would like caring responsibilities to be acknowledged and remunerated fairly. But the position won't change until women have economic clout.

This ^

Whether we like it or not, money (is economic freedom) is power. I believe that women need to get into a more influential position of power generally first, and then we can more successfully influence things like the level of respect afforded to people performing caring responsibilities. It's just too difficult to do until we are more broadly represented at he most senior level of key institutions in society (companies, government bodies, other organisations etc).

OP, you know your DH better than anyone but I suspect he won't be persuaded on grounds of what you think should happen. This might be one of those moments to put your foot down and insist on the woman's promotion, on the basis of what would he do if it were one of your daughters. Hey, I know this might not seem a bit unethical but these are the sort of things we need to do to disrupt a deeply ingrained way of working that favours men. Personally I'm in a position where I influence the recruitment of a number of senior directors every year and I have started insisting on credible females on every shortlist. Some people don't like the idea of me insisting but frankly it's the only way to combat lazy thinking and ways of doing things (i.e. Just keep doing the same thing as we've always done).

Unrelated point but @Thesearepearls - a partner in a Big 4 firm - you should do one of these "ask me anything" threads! I'm sure many of us could be inspired by this.

But to those who state SAHMs perpetuate the patriarchy - no
Actually yes

Perhaps you find it uncomfortable to acknowledge, but sahm are perpetrating patriarchy by reinforcing and enacacting the male wage earner external to home, unwaged woman internal to home doing all childcare & domestic tasks. You reinforce that the model of giving things up,of the woman stepping down not stepping up, or staying on. All to support a male, to allow him to progress unencumbered in workplace

And to be sure it is always the women giving work up,staying home. The percentage of sahd is tiny,albeit slightly increasing.but increasing from a v low point. Thus reinforcing the notion of what is women’s work

I doubt it is a truly a free made choice to give up work a choice not influenced by partners,parents,employers,society,culture,upbringing. If it’s such a free logical choice to give up work why aren’t men making it in droves?

Why when a couple are expecting a baby is the man not asked if he’s going PT or giving up work? I’ve never seen an expectant father asked his work intentions when baby arrive. I’ve repeatedly seen women sled their work intentions after baby arrives.

Imo, women have choices and make them under the influence of partners,parents,employers,society,culture,upbringing. And those aforementioned factors culture,society usually favour women giving up work. I acknowledge things are changing, and make women are employed than 10yr age.there is an attitudinal change.

No ones going to come and compel you back to work.

That's a thought.

It might not be a particularly inspirational thread though :) It might be all about 60-hour weeks. There are some super bits though. Helping people to achieve their ambitions. Dealing with projects when projects go wrong. Resilience resilience and resilience ...

I'll give it a go if anyone thinks it might be useful.

Yes, please do.

OP I think your husband is not unusual, but it makes me sad. If you have daughters I'd be pointing out that someday ppl will be judging them by the same standards and ask how he feels about that, or about your employment if you work?

Yes please do,I am genuinely interested in other people,,their life,their path and POV
I am good friends with solicitors so I have an idea but yes I’d be v interested

I started my career by qualifying at a Big 4 firm so I have tons of cheeky questions I'd love to ask!

I think it would be inspiring.. there aren't many women that make it to the top of a firm like yours so would be fascinating to know what it's like and how you managed it!

I would do it if I were hiring to be perfectly honest. If presented with two candidates that are equally good but I had reason to believe that one of them would suddenly leave (whether it was tall of ttc or moving to a different country, health problems, whatever) I would choose the candidate that didn't carry the risk. Why take a risk like that if they are equally good candidates?

@LipstickHandbagCoffee what if it wasn't viewed as "giving things up" (as a patriarchal society would like you to view it) but also having a more enriched life doing something you truly love? Because that's how some women view caring for their own children. Giving up a job that might have had shit hours and relentless pressure, or simply wasn't fulfilling, to care for one's own children can be an amazing experience, and one that many men could benefit from, if that patriarchal view of value only obtained through work status, wasn't the norm. Harms men too. It's about choice. Stating that all SAHMs are "giving up things" without seeing the aspects of their life that might be enriched, is incredibly narrow minded and insulting.

And of course men becoming SAHDs is a rarer phenomenon when all things seen as feminine (such as care provision) is viewed as little value, and society only places value on careers and money!

Okay - you're on

I'd have had reservations previously but the kids are 18 and 20 now so are unlikely to be embarrassed by something their Mum says on an internet forum.

Actually one of the reasons I'd quite like to do this is because I really wasn't a great manager/senior manager until I had kids. Being a Mum is one of the things that has made a massive difference. I don't mean to say that non-parents don't have any emotional intelligence. It's just that having kids made a massive difference to me. You can just nudge someone here or there to help them to realise their ambitions. It makes a significant difference to a team.

Lipstick, I am not going to swap roles, it woukd be very silly for me to make dh who is the higher wage earner to give up his job to be a stahd, whilst I go to work within tge health and social care field. Psychology is my area( I am not fully qualified)as as psychology assistant, or therapy assistant or community worker. We need the money to pay bills, support our children, it would be foolish for dh to give up work. If I was on a comparisble wager he woukd gladly be a stahd.