To wonder how the heck schools expect working parents to cope with this?

[Worriedaboutdog]

Apologies this may be a rant. DS1 is due to start school in September. We have therefore put childcare plans in place based on him starting school on the first day of term in September. School have just announced that:

a) reception start a week later
And
b) as a summer birthday, DS actually will do half days for another week after that, and ‘must be picked up at 1.30pm’.

No mention of either of these things was made when we looked round the school. We have already juggled the time off we have available to look after him over the summer. As it happens it’s probably easier for us than most parents as DH is a shift worker so can cover some days, but we were relying on him going to school at the beginning of September, and being in after-school club on days DH isn’t at home until I can get there to pick him up. Wtf are parents who both work Monday-Friday meant to do about two extra weeks?! This was all announced today in a meeting (I couldn’t go, because it was at 3.30pm, but DH did), and when he asked the class teacher if they had to go home at lunchtime or could stay and then go to after school club, she said they had to go home and we’d have to get ‘a grandparent or someone’ to pick them up. So we’ll just magic up a grandparent physically fit and willing enough to do a whole week of half days childcare, who is actually able to drive to the school, then.

He can possibly go back to his current nursery for the week he isn’t in school at all, but the half days are stumping me. I think I probably am being unreasonable to be cross - I realise school is not designed to be childcare, and therefore not run for the convenience of the parents, BUT they must know that parents make assumptions (based on the information on their website!) about the dates of terms and the length of the school day, and make arrangements accordingly. And that this just isn’t feasible for everyone, and if they don’t bloody tell you about it until June then plans (and budgets) for September childcare are already in place! Argh.

In a country like ours, where living costs are at a level where parents need to work to survive, the WHOLE system needs to change.

School hours, school holidays, employee holiday entitlements, attitudes, teacher hours and conditions...

It would be such a massive job, that would face so much resistance, that no-one will even suggest it, let alone take it on.

I've given up work to be a SAHM. In some ways I'm lucky that this was an option for me, in other ways it makes me incredibly sad that I have been forced to make this life choice due to things outside of my control.

Well afterthe end of the school day it’s undirected time, isn’t it?

The better teachers at my school who are also parents pay for the after school club and work after school.

Look, I’m supportive of teachers. It is a very difficult job, I am really familiar with what teachers have to put up with. Hence why I am support staff and didn’t pursue a much longed-for teachin career). I don’t really blame teachers for wanting to get off the premises as early as they can after dealing with some of the things they have to deal with AND impress Ofsted to boot.

What I’m not impressed with is SOME teachers at my school who prefer to have the school day orrganised around their childcare, whether it benefits the pupils or not.

I’m not saying it’a all teachers in all schools. I would just like to know the benefits to the pupils of a school changing their end time to 2.40 and thus leaving them unsupervised at home for so much longer.

There is no such thing as ‘undirected time’. There are the 1265 hours of directed time that teachers are paid for. Which usually includes ten minutes before and after school.

Not staying for hours after this and picking your kids up to do your work at home is NOT letting the kids down.

That kind of masochistic attitude is what pushes good teachers to breaking point. It should not be about how many hours you are in school or how many tasks you do in a day.

Only a member of support staff would think that makes a good teacher.

Schools need a change of culture to reflect modern social needs. Why they don’t need us teachers in school until 5pm for no sodding good reason except to flog themselves into the ground.

MissSusan: I’m not saying that is what makes a good teacher. I am saying that is what the good teachers seem to do. The ones who manage the class better, have a better rapport with their pupils, are enthusiastic about their subject, passionate about helping out pupils who are struggling.

A lot of teachers I know like to get marking and planning done after school in school. Are available for struggling students to gonand see them. They like to Have their kids in after school club occupied, so that when they DO get home they are not then having to ignore their child the whole evening. (I do realise that sometimes despite this there are times when they are marking very late and it is hard on their family)

I’m not trying to have an argument with you. I’m simply saying that not all teachers are the same. Some that have been in the job are long time just seem to want to come in, do the teaching hours then go home. Minimal work done at home too.

I’m not saying it’a all teachers in all schools. I would just like to know the benefits to the pupils of a school changing their end time to 2.40 and thus leaving them unsupervised at home for so much longer.

I think that it is to save money as budgets have been cut so much. I suppose if they are open for less hours, they spend less on heating etc and will have shorter lunch time, meaning less lunchtime staff.

Some that have been in the job are long time just seem to want to come in, do the teaching hours then go home. Minimal work done at home too.

Have you thought about why that is? Is it perhaps that they are more experienced and need less prep?

Look, I pay £1400 pounds a month in nursery fees to give my all to the kids in the way you describe. It has made me depressed, nearly cause the break up of my marriage and not greatly improved the quality of my teaching.

I would not recommend time served on school site as a bar of how good a teacher is.

This is why teaching is now for the young and childless and men.

I only took two fucking days off for a late first trimester miscarriage because I didn’t want to let the kids down. Something is wrong with that picture.

It is, yes
Let’s just leave it there. You don’t know the individuals I’m talking about so it’s difficult to get what I mean across.

Plus the thread has rather derailed. Apologies, OP.

I think it's the inconsistency for the "settling in" period that causes most of the problems.

In our area, the schools all have different settling in periods, one has children in FT from day 1, so there's clearly no universal agreement on the benefits.

And this hasn't been around that long. DD is my eldest, at 18. She had a couple of weeks of half days, the problem being that it wasn't either morning or afternoon (which would have been far easier to manage) but a right mixture. DS 4 years later did at least have it more steady.

No home visit for DD, but a 10 minute slot for DS. Wow, sure that did some good, especially as I knew these teachers already because of DD. I had to take a whole day of precious leave, when I was saving the leave to cover essential school holidays.

Ex and I were then together, splitting holidays so eventually we had one week a year off at the same time fos a family holiday, and the rest of our leave separate to cover as much of the school holidays as possible. His mum couldn't look after the children, my parents helped at first, but because their disabilities got worse, couldn't continue to help. And friends also worked, so I couldn't even ask there.

And it was the half days that caused the problems. The rest of it balanced nicely, could just about manage.

When Ex and I went to school, in the 70s, we didn't have this half day stuff, straight in on day 1. It was staggered to the extent that we started on the first day of the term in which we turned 5, but it was still a straight into FT situation. And was like this in all the local schools until sometime in the 1990s.

So, there's no defining evidence of benefits either way. Personally I feel straight in on day 1 FT would help most settle in faster. It provides more in the way of a consistent routine, and they are with their classmates more in the early stages, meaning friendships can be built quicker and more easily.

Disasterdahling - speak for your self, I'm talking as someone who was once a working single mother

I disagree that home visits ate vitally important for their learning. They serve no purpose at all.

Surely we aren't being asked to believe that schools are tailoring their teaching to each individual child!!?? That would be totally impractical in a class of 30.

I think secondary kids would do better with a slightly later start and later finish.

I have read about experiments where they tried this and it was very successful in terms of children's learning.
I find it really irritating when teachers get all sanctimonious about "school not childcare" when they get most of the kids holidays off too. And yes I know they have work to do in that time, but I had a friend who was a teacher and her husband was and lecturer and she was so scathing about parents and would often trot out this line. The thing is, her husband had massive flexibility during the summer, plus lots over Easter and Christmas, and she had at least 9 weeks off in total , so they really had no concept of trying to keep going through the year with the 25 days of annual leave most of us get.

You can insist that they are full time from day 1. When my youngest started 3 children started full days straight away because of parents work. 2 were fine, one little girl was a wreck but her parents are still putting themselves first 4 years later (they wanted her in full time as had booked a holiday for just them abroad from Sept 8th)

I'm not sure what good insisting your child does full days from day 1 would do. If there is one group in the morning and another in the afternoon your dc would-be the only reception child over lunch. If they stagger things differently and do some home visits what would they do with your child?

If this is the school policy and what they believe in I'm not sure it would be a good idea to alienate your child from the start and force such things. Maybe it isn't the school for you or maybe you would just do better paying a child minder .

Pretty normal. When dd started Reception in 2006 she didn’t do full days until the spring term and the start was very staggered. They’d tightened it up a bit when ds started two years later as had a new - more ‘with the times’ head but he still started towards end Sept. I went back to work a few months later.
Some parents had to keep the private nursery place for the afternoons or had au pairs or whatever but I would say most did t work f/t then or one parent was flexible.

Ds1 had 3 weeks of half days when he started school 2016 luckily ds2 was due in October so started mat leave to cover it. When ds2 starts ill likely take parental leave to cover it

Definite pain but so are the holidays we have 5 holiday club providers here all the best ones are 8.30-3 8.45-3.30 the only one that's 8-6 ds doesn't want to do lots of working from home this summer I think

@MyOtherProfile it's not as though there's much real choice of schools unless you go private and if someone can't afford it or more likely there's no spaces with childminders then they're screwed. A lot of people can't afford to take 3 weeks off work and most people don't have flexibility with hours to work from home. Our school has no breakfast or after school club, always finishes at 1pm on the last day of school and there's a chronic shortage of childcare so getting a space is like finding rocking horse poo. If the government wants more people in work then the situation needs to be improved. If they wish to do 1/2 days for any more than a week then they should provide an after school club option for the children whose parents work and don't have support to do 3 weeks (or more!)

I would just like to know the benefits to the pupils of a school changing their end time to 2.40 and thus leaving them unsupervised at home for so much longer.

There are three local schools in this area (1 extremely large high school (1800 students), a large state primary school (900 students) and a private primary (600 students) all on the same street. They recently all changed their start and finish times to try and alleviate some of the traffic chaos. The high school finishes first (2:20), the private primary second (2:55), then the state primary (3:30). The high school finished first because a lot of the students pick up their younger siblings from the primary schools, so it meant they can be there on time. It used to be that the high school finished ten minutes before the primaries. It most certainly wasn't done for staff convenience.

My take out from this thread, and my ds’s first year of school, is that schools (heads?) can be remarkably high handed. Communication is shonky. Decisions are arbitrary and seldom based on any real evidence but always presented as being in the best interest of the child with an assumption that you should defer to your betters. There is scant regard for the fact that schools are publically funded and need to be accountable for their decisions.

Parents fall in to a few different groups but I recognise at least two distinct segments. One segment is people like me who may be generally supportive but question some of the decision making. The other segment is parents who seem to operate a philosophy of ‘My school right or wrong’. These are generally the SAH parents, those with family on tap or those with super flexible work. These parents back staggered starts because it reinforces their belief that they are clever not to work and to have family on tap.

On school decision making, and I’m speculating here as I haven’t worked in a school, I wonder if you get some group think going on. The dynamics of a primary school of pretty much like working in a very small business where everyone starts to think alike and the head is seldom challenged. I can only think this is the way some of the craziness that goes on at my kids school happens...

@4yearanosleep you don't know that the OPs situation is the same though. Lots of schools are different from yours and there are childminders around in lots of places. It's worth suggesting and for the OP to look into it rather than just defeatedly throwing ones hands in the air.

@iozstar I think there's a 3rd group of parents who will always assume they know more than the teachers and that the school have it wrong and must be proved so.

And in my experience decisions in school aren't made by a group and lowly teachers have nothing to do with them.

@MyOtherProfile what 4yearanosleep is describing is a typical rural school. There is little choice because schools are few and far between, and little childcare available.

Most schools do a staggered start. The meeting in June is the first real contact the school have with new parents to let them know, as this is when everyone has handing in the what feels like millions of forms and proof of your child and you. I remember doing a staggered start back when I went to school, it’s not really a new thing and if you think this is short notice wait till you get messages asking for costumes with under a weeks notice.

I’m so pleased my children’s school didn’t do this but based it on the child, if a child struggles they’re asked to be collected. Many childen are in nursery all day anyway so going to half days isn’t going to help anything

This is vitally important for planning for their learning in early years

Home visits, half days and staggered starts etc are clearly not "vitally important". While these things aren't unusual, they're not universal either. My DC's school don't do any of this. They have an optional "taster session" where they go in for the morning in late June and another one in July. Then they all start full time from September and, miraculously, they are all fine.

The whole "school isn't childcare" thing is just tedious and completely misses the point that OP and other parents on this thread are making. No one actually thinks school is childcare. But the days when it was the norm to have a parent at home full time and whole extended families living nearby ready to help out are gone, like it or not. So for schools to operate on the assumption that this is still the case is just daft. Of course schools should not be run for the convenience of working parents, but they shouldn't penalise them or pretend they don't exist either.

I work in a school so can't take time off in term time. I bet the same posters who are berating OP and telling her to "just take time off" would be the first to complain if I wasn't able to meet with them, return their calls/emails or build any kind of relationship with their DC because I've had to take the first two weeks of term off work and then have to keep leaving at random times of day for several weeks to settle my own DD into Reception.