To be sick of women being told to exercise 'situational awareness'

[Quantumblue]

In Melbourne we have just had another sickening rape and murder of a young woman. A 22 year old comedian, walking home at 10.30 pm after finishing a gig. Through an inner city park where thousands of people walk, run, cycle and hang out each week.
The police response has been to tell women to exercise caution and situational awareness.
So upset at this loss ( she was at school with my nephew) and so upset that the solution is for women to be more aware. We are all aware of danger every time we go out our front doors.
RIP Eurydice

So straight answer, why don’t you act upon urges? Is it respect for women? The belief that your rights don’t trump hers? Or just that the urge isn’t that strong?

Sorry that this answer isn't straight. :)

I think you'd need to be specific about which urges you mean. The urge to overpower some random stranger to force them into sex? It's either not there or is so weak that I can't acknowledge it. I think I have empathy, that's what renders any kind of impulse to do that kind of thing void. I'd hate to have someone terrified and suffer years of mental anguish over something I had done.

The urge to have sex is there sure, but I'm a happily married man, I don't act on those urges either because of respect and love for my wife.

I do agree with you that upbringing has a large part to play though. Yes I respect women, why wouldn't I? They are the same as me minus a couple of physical differences.

As for rights? I have none in that area, I have no right to sex, she has every right not to be molested. There's no trumping here, one right exists, the other doesn't.

I think education makes a massive difference in non violent rape, consent education and information will go a long way to reducing and preventing that kind of rape/sexual assault.

If we think we can prevent the Ted Bundys of the world carrying out this kind of attack through educational intervention or discussion though, that's never going to happen.

I've never been sat in the pub with friends and had one of them say, you know what, the other night I felt really rapey but a cold bath helped.

How would you ever bring it up if you did feel that way?

Many years ago, a teenage student of mine was attacked at 6 pm on a summer afternoon in Dublin and when she reported it to the police they told her she shouldn't have been out alone.

I agree with taking reasonable precautions, but the trouble with victim blaming is that it is a message to all of society, including potential rapists, that any woman alone is asking for it.

If we think we can prevent the Ted Bundys of the world carrying out this kind of attack through educational intervention or discussion though, that's never going to happen.

Sorry it was a bit of a silly question but the point of it was that there are evidently plenty of men that don’t act on impulses caused by testosterone so instead of testing for high levels, perhaps the answers should come from men who manage to go about their lives, seeing attractive women and not raping them.

You say that educational intervention won’t help but you also say that your own upbringing, respect for women, your wife etc plays a role. You weren’t just born with empathy and respect, you learned it. As these offenders tend to start young I wonder if ‘normal men’, becoming more involved with young offenders would be a start.

Sorry to clarify

I think upbringing and respect is what taught me that if my wife says not tonight Josephine I don't try and coerce her into doing something she doesn't want to do. Or in my younger years if I asked someone if I could buy them a drink and they said no, I didn't go on to hassle them or be nasty about it. That's the learnt respect.

I don't think it has much to do with me not violently attacking women for sexual gratification. I hope that's something inherent in me as a person. It certainly feels that way.

Hey I may be wrong though, if the answer was easy, then nature/nurture would no longer be a question.

I think upbringing and respect is what taught me that if my wife says not tonight Josephine I don't try and coerce her into doing something she doesn't want to do

Ah you see! But you make a distinction between the man lurking in the bush waiting to pounce on a strange female and a man who rapes his wife.

I don’t think there’s as much of a difference as we like to believe.

You come across as a very nice person. I also like to think I’m a nice person. I certainly have never looked at a stranger and thought about having sex with them let alone against their will. But who knows how I’d feel with a ropey upbringing and too much testosterone?

We are all just animals. Some of us learn to control ourselves against urges. As sexual violence is committed largely by men, testosterone is the common denominator. So surely the answer is not to talk to women about situational awareness, but to get men, who are perfectly capable of living with testosterone and the urges it brings to come up with a solution.

I don’t have the answers and I suppose it sounds silly expecting men that don’t attack women to deal with the ones that do. It just feels unfair that women get the blame and are seemingly expected to find the solutions.

Why aren't we teaching men not to rape and murder rather than women 'how to stay safe'?

Because us women are always held accountable, expected to be better behaved and do as we are told, while 'boys will be boys'. It begins early on. I have lost count of the people who have said they prefer to have boys as they are 'less trouble'. Presumably rape and murder is less embarrassing to the family than an unwanted pregnancy.

Can we just mention the whole Australian attitude to women is pretty fucking grim in the first place. So this shouldn't be a surprise OP that they put it on women.

Bunny I take exception to that. I live in Australia and I'm English. I have had more opportunities and been treated with more equality here than I ever had in the UK.

Perhaps that's luck or where I live but either way don't come here, saying things like that when you obviously have no idea.

The old image of the hard-faced Aussie outdoorsman is a cartoon...a character. The men here are no more like that than the men in England are like Lord Snooty.

thymelord I wish that, after this horrific event, the first thing that had been said was "Men, stay indoors until you can stop each other raping and murdering".

My my, this idea has some holes in it.
Does this mean that my husband and all the other men who pay mortgages and bills for themsleves and their families can't go to work?
How about attending medical appointments? Maybe allow men out to medical appointment with a police chaperone, female officer obvs. Oh, but what if that man rapes the female police officer?

I agree Ajas. That has been my experience too.

You shouldn't have to lock your doors either, because people shouldn't come in and steal your stuff. But they will, so you have to lock your doors. Same thing.

This is stupid sorry OP.

I'm sure the police are saying " these things do and can happen. Here is how to minimise risk "

and not

" this happened because you walked home alone "

Please think before you post

deathraystare
I have lost count of the people who have said they prefer to have boys as they are 'less trouble'. Presumably rape and murder is less embarrassing to the family than an unwanted pregnancy.
Unwanted pregnancies are rife.
However most peoples sons are not rapists or murderers.
Neither the unwanted pregnancy nor the rape and murder scenarios are the reason people say boys are less trouble.
Has anyone ever heard a mum of boys say "oh, I love having boys, of course there's the raping and murdering to cope with but hey, boys will be boys"

My my, this idea has some holes in it.
Does this mean that my husband and all the other men who pay mortgages and bills for themsleves and their families can't go to work?
How about attending medical appointments? Maybe allow men out to medical appointment with a police chaperone, female officer obvs. Oh, but what if that man rapes the female police officer?

Sounds crazy right? Yet there seems to be no problem telling women to stay away from certain places at certain times and not be alone with males does there?

Don’t they go to medical appointments, travel to and from jobs or pay mortgages too?

@melonscoffer

It has no more holes in it than suggesting women not be out at a certain time.

What about women who have jobs to go to and have bills to pay and families to support? Same thing really.

I hope that women don't get the blame, though I'm well aware it happens sometimes.

It's a shitty situation all round, you want to help protect people so tell them about dangers but in doing so you're somehow validating the "She shouldn't have worn that skirt" brigade. I feel for the police in this situation, what are they supposed to say? Help protect or be morally correct, which trumps which? I'd say given the nature of their jobs they said the right thing.

When I read your comment about there not being much of a difference between the two, I initially thought you're wrong but on thinking about it perhaps you're right. It's a basic lack of respect for someone else, perhaps the two really are quite close together.

On no, I'm quite happy for you to expect me to deal with the ones that do, point them out and I'll get right on it. Unfortunately I don't know who they are. I hope we do find a way to identify them.

I think we all need to work on the solutions, regardless of gender, it does affect us all, directly or indirectly.

The majority of violent crime is committed by men.

The majority of victims of violent crime are also men.

It is far more logical to suggest that men take precautions and avoid being out after a certain time. Not only would it help prevent male violence against women it would also prevent male on male victims.

Really it is the perfect solution.

Precisely, Teas. It’s apparently preposterous to limit men, but not to limit women. Funny that.

Or we could limit no one ta da

Yes I do think its victim blaming to tell women to be more careful, but I don't think we need to teach men not to rape and murder. Everyone knows this is wrong but some people don't care.

I firmly believe that there’s nothing women can do about this. We’ve been fighting this forever and it’s still totally out of our hands.

We need men (yes, all men) to step up.

siwel that’s what the OP is suggesting isn’t it?

Yes. I'm disagreeing with posters saying limit men going out

agnurse
Totally agree with you

It's not victim blaming to tell women to be safe and not put themselves in a situation where they are alone, or secluded especially at night, it's common sense. There will always be bad people in this world, don't put yourself in potential harms way. You could be in the wrong place at the wrong time unfortunately with the wrong person ready to pounce on someone they deem vulnerable.