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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be sick of women being told to exercise 'situational awareness'

459 replies

Quantumblue · 15/06/2018 01:36

In Melbourne we have just had another sickening rape and murder of a young woman. A 22 year old comedian, walking home at 10.30 pm after finishing a gig. Through an inner city park where thousands of people walk, run, cycle and hang out each week.
The police response has been to tell women to exercise caution and situational awareness.
So upset at this loss ( she was at school with my nephew) and so upset that the solution is for women to be more aware. We are all aware of danger every time we go out our front doors.
RIP Eurydice

OP posts:
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5
speakout · 17/06/2018 08:51

We teach children "Stranger/Danger" at school - sad but necessary.

No we don't.

That message is dangerous and is not taught at any school I know.

Children are taught about respect nowadays.

SmileEachDay · 17/06/2018 08:57

If sexual assault and rape was just a few bad apples, why are 98% carried out by men?

Why aren’t there roughly even numbers carried out by both sexes?

88% of all violent crime is carried out by men. Why not 50%?

That’s why this is down to men to sort out.

RebelRogue · 17/06/2018 09:05

well what can you expect, he is only a man"

No one I know uses that argument. If anything this argument gets used by rape apologists in an inevitable,nothing you can do about it way. Men can't control themselves so women control everything you do,think,wear to keep safe.
It's BS.

And the whole "keeping safe" idea wouldn't get so bad if it didn't get extrapolated to thousands of other cases that have nothing to do with the stranger in a dark alley situation.

All my assaults happened by people I knew,and in some way trusted. Two of them happened with other people in the same room! One happened in my own home. Two were by family members. For 3 of them I was a child.Have a guess who had to modify their behaviour, change what they were doing, got questioned and doubted and shamed? Hint..it wasn't the males.

Pumperthepumper · 17/06/2018 09:16

The culture change needs to embrace mutual respect between men and women; and the danger at present is that the "well what can you expect, he is only a man" approach is unhelpful and will need burying at some point, before we reach a civilised middle way that avoids stereotyping.

This has no ‘logical extrapolation’ either - we need to respect men because otherwise they won’t respect us and will keep raping us?

Mishappening · 17/06/2018 09:19

I am sorry that you have had such bad experiences RebelRogue.

I wonder if my review of a book by Grayson Perry might add something to the debate:

The Descent of Man, by Grayson Perry– this is an intelligent, fluently written and thought-provoking account of being male in today's society. His basic argument is that the stereotype of the male does a huge disservice to society (and has done so throughout history) and to men themselves. He is not anti-men – he is one himself – nor blindly pro-feminist, but writes with a sense of sadness at the moulding of boys and young men into a form that demands more of them than any human should be asked to shoulder, to their detriment and that of us all:

“most violent people, rapists, criminals, killers, tax avoiders, corrupt politicians, planet despoilers, sex abusers and dinner-party bores, do tend to be, well… men”

His “Default Man” “... prioritizes 'rational' goals like profit, efficiency, self-determination and ambition over emotional rewards like social cohesion, quality of life, culture and happiness.”

“What would happen if we rethought the old, macho, outdated version of manhood, and embraced a different idea of what makes a man? Apart from giving up the coronary-inducing stress of always being 'right' and the vast new wardrobe options, the real benefit might be that a newly fitted masculinity will allow men to have better relationships - and that's happiness, right?”

He is very good at asking us to contemplate how the male view of the world “just is” – it is what we have all grown up with – it is what we accept as the norm - it is woven into the fabric of our western world, from town planning and political systems to the design of public toilets.

The book is not without its flaws. It attempts to be all-encompassing, but is in fact mainly centred around the western male. However, it is a charming, honest and tender attempt to set the ball rolling on a new way of looking at masculinity; not one that is based on feminist theories (which is where most analyses of gender equality start), but one that takes a close look at how men are nurtured into a role that is not only painful for many men themselves but also causes (and has caused) untold misery for the world. There is a gently regretful air to the book, coupled with wit and humour and a hint of hope - and tongue in cheek...“We need to breed smaller, more sensitive men. Get Gareth Malone to a sperm bank now!”

Definitely worth a read.

RebelRogue · 17/06/2018 09:33

@Mishappening it's a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy,a vicious circle. Society spends years telling and showing boys that they have to be/are better,stronger,tougher,sterner,more competitive,entitled to x,y,z, that things and people are just up for grabs etc and then exclaim in wide eyed faux wonder "well that's just how men are!"

GoldenWonderwall · 17/06/2018 09:51

I think it’s interesting when posters centre men’s feelings in discussions such as these because I see that as another magical thinking way of trying to keep themselves safe. Much like in an individual abusive situation where one attempts to placate, flatter and distract the abuser from kicking off, so it seems some people think you can do that on a larger level. That by placating and flattering men in general, you can soothe the savage beast and protect yourself from it. And if something happens to someone? Well they didn’t do the dance well enough did they? Teaching our daughters the steps doesn’t stop someone from stamping on their feet. Reassuring the men in our lives that they’re good men doesn’t stop a large proportion of men in general commiting violence and sexual violence against us because we are women.

I’ve had terrible experiences with men that are well educated, well socialised and in positions of responsibility. Men with wives and children and careers. They don’t have to lurk down a dark alley or hide behind a bush, they’re in plain sight and they don’t give a toss what you’re wearing or how you’re with a friend or you’ve stayed in a group or etc etc.

Mishappening · 17/06/2018 10:29

I am not suggesting that we flatter men inappropriately or try to boost their egos, but that the blanket condemnation that has become fashionable does not help anyone, men or women. In trying to boost the role of women it may be that we have had to take men down a peg or two; but the optimum situation to reach is where neither is denigrated. That is what we should be aiming for.

It troubles me to hear the bad experiences that people have had of men on this thread - these our outside my experience or that of any of my friends and family. I can absolutely understand that these experiences would colour someone's opinions, but I am not sure that this means they are universal and that attempts to reach a balance should be fueled by this.

Pumperthepumper · 17/06/2018 10:41

but the optimum situation to reach is where neither is denigrated

Would love to hear some suggestions for how we can stop men raping us without holding them responsible.

RebelRogue · 17/06/2018 10:41

Saying that men (as a class, and it's always talked about as a class) are violent is not blanket condemnation. And it's because we know that not all men are like that(does it really need mentioning in every post) we expect better from men as a class.

SmileEachDay · 17/06/2018 10:45

blanket condemnation

If we don’t name the problem, we can’t deal with it.
You know, it was only in 1991 that rape within marriage became a crime in the U.K. 1991! Until then, it was completely legal for men to insist their wife had sex with them.

The name of the problem is male violence. Damn right I’ll name it; don’t dismiss this as “fashionable”.

You didn’t answer my question mis - why are 98% of sexual crimes carried out by men? Why are 88% of violent crimes carried out by men?

NAMALT is a silencing tactic. Those men who are genuine allies understand that as a class, men are the issue.

Mishappening · 17/06/2018 12:10

"why are 98% of sexual crimes carried out by men? Why are 88% of violent crimes carried out by men?" - I do not know - do you?

Male violence is unacceptable - that goes without saying - any violence is wrong.

SmileEachDay · 17/06/2018 12:27

Male violence is unacceptable - that goes without saying - any violence is wrong

Why does the statement “Male violence is unacceptable” need qualifying in this way?

Mishappening · 17/06/2018 13:35

Not a qualification - an extension. Do not read anything sinister into that!

SmileEachDay · 17/06/2018 13:42

I don’t think it’s sinister. I honk it’s interesting that you didn’t state:

Male violence is wrong.

You softened it. I’m interested in why.

Mishappening · 17/06/2018 15:58

I do not think it is "softening" it. Violence is wrong, end of.

SmileEachDay · 17/06/2018 16:07

It’s whataboutery, Mis.

Male violence is a problem.

To make it about “all violence” is essentially saying “what about violent women though”.

Male violence is the problem.

RebelRogue · 17/06/2018 16:07

But why when talking specifically about male violence,you felt the need to specify all violence is wrong?

GoldenWonderwall · 17/06/2018 16:28

Yes how dare the 1/5 to 1/4 of women who have been victims of sexual violence talk about their experience and use it to inform their opinion? It’s much more important to consider the feelings of men and how men might feel bad or sad if they are held to account for creating and perpetuating a world where women are required to be constantly vigilant with regards to being targets of men’s violence and sexual violence. And blamed when for whatever reason that constant vigilance proved to be insufficient to protect them from sexual violence.

How would you know no one you know is a perpetrator of violence against women? Most men don’t shout it from the rooftops and most women don’t report. Hand on heart I can say my dh and my dc are not sexually violent but I couldn’t swear on any other men of my acquaintance.

user1457017537 · 17/06/2018 16:55

I think everyone needs to practice situational awareness. It is the first thing personal protection personnel teach.

Mishappening · 17/06/2018 18:43

Exactly - I agree. Common sense, not a political statement.

I am finding this conversation unproductive as so many people are twisting my words, extrapolating to illogicality and assuming that I do not care a jot about women who have suffered at the hands of men. How crazy is that. Of course I care.

Hopefully there will one day be a way through all this unhappiness when both men and women can feel comfortable in their own skins and able to treat each other with respect.

I think it will be a long time in coming.

RebelRogue · 17/06/2018 18:49

@Mishappening ...how are women not treating men with respect?

Pumperthepumper · 17/06/2018 18:57

I am finding this conversation unproductive as so many people are twisting my words, extrapolating to illogicality and assuming that I do not care a jot about women who have suffered at the hands of men. How crazy is that. Of course I care.

You think the solution to stopping women being raped lies with women - that they should modify their behaviour to keep safe. Yet you think suggesting men modifying their behaviour is man-hating and showing disrespect to men. That’s literally what you’ve posted, I’m not sure why you keep posting ‘illogical extrapolation’.

GoldenWonderwall · 17/06/2018 19:11

It is pointless discussing this kind of stuff with people who won’t listen and think there is some simple method to avoiding all kinds of sexual violence. If I had to advise someone how to avoid sexual violence it would be to never go home with a man with a group after being in a pub, never have a relationship with a man and never socialise with work colleagues in public places. Is this common sense? Is this workable or feasible? No it is not. So avoid the woods if you must, but the wolves are still in Grandma’s house.

StillSmallVoice · 18/06/2018 09:29

The makeshift memorial to Eurydice was vandalised over the weekend. That is really shocking.