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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be sick of women being told to exercise 'situational awareness'

459 replies

Quantumblue · 15/06/2018 01:36

In Melbourne we have just had another sickening rape and murder of a young woman. A 22 year old comedian, walking home at 10.30 pm after finishing a gig. Through an inner city park where thousands of people walk, run, cycle and hang out each week.
The police response has been to tell women to exercise caution and situational awareness.
So upset at this loss ( she was at school with my nephew) and so upset that the solution is for women to be more aware. We are all aware of danger every time we go out our front doors.
RIP Eurydice

OP posts:
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Pumperthepumper · 16/06/2018 19:20

Also, this is interesting:

I do not place a responsibility on ordinary decent men to deal with any crime?

But you do put that same responsibility into your (presumably ordinary, decent) daughter. You see it as her problem to deal with, not average man. Why is that?

Mishappening · 16/06/2018 20:09

I do not see it as her problem. I see it as the problem of the perverted man, against whom she needs to protect herself.

It is not the responsibility of ALL men to assume responsibility for that sick individual's problem.

Just because a crime is overwhelmingly done by individual perverted men does not mean that ALL men have a responsibility to stop it happening - they are not doing it; they are just trying to get on with their decent lives.

Mishappening · 16/06/2018 20:11

What exactly should my entirely normal and decent OH be doing to stop a tiny group of man committing criminal acts?

It would helpful you answered some of my questions, as I have had the courtesy to answer yours!

SmileEachDay · 16/06/2018 20:18

Plenty of men leading “decent lives” don’t pull up their mates when they do “banter”, when they do , when they use the words slut, slag whatever. When they comment on women’s appearance, choices...

Because if they don’t challenge that - every time - they are part of the issue.

Pumperthepumper · 16/06/2018 20:25

I’ve already told you what your husband can do:

Here’s what the average man can do: don’t see women as a commodity- don’t visit strip clubs, don’t pay for lap dances, don’t be a sex tourist. Don’t stand for any ‘laddish banter’ - don’t talk about your bosses’ tits or how the CEO is gagging for it. Don’t stand for these things being said in your presence. Teach your children about proper consent, not ‘boys will be boys’ or ‘wearing her down’ until she agrees. Dont wolf whistle from cars. Don’t only care about these things because you have a daughter - care about them for womenkind. Be furious about the gender pay gap and maternity rights - in a nutshell, give a shit about women.

If he’s already doing these things, brilliant! Now he can pass it on to his friends and family and colleagues and rugby/golf mates and any other man he comes into contact with. And end this culture of women as victims.

What question haven’t I answered?

Pumperthepumper · 16/06/2018 20:26

Think for a second though, if your husband is already doing this then why are you so offended at the suggestion?

IfyouseeRitaMoreno · 16/06/2018 20:30

My ex who, despite being shite at housework, was a professed feminist confessed to me that the men he works with are 100% misogynist. I said it's good to know it's not my paranoia. He said , no it definitely happens and the things they say about women and blacks makes him so ashamed.

I then asked him if he challenges it and he said that no, he keeps his head down and doesn't join in but to challenge it would risk ruining his work life. They would see him as a "snowflake".

So there's a lot stopping men challenging other men. And I feel like, especially at the moment, there is a lot of resentment towards women by incels for the perceived privilege that we have.

IfyouseeRitaMoreno · 16/06/2018 20:31

** sorry women and black people - god that sounded disrespectful.

IfyouseeRitaMoreno · 16/06/2018 20:34

Be furious about the gender pay gap and maternity rights

The problem is that so many don't think the gender pay gap exists. They feel like it's being forced down their throats by a feminist left wing mainstream takeover.

But they never stop to think that the choices women make are never made in a vacuum and that maybe, just maybe, looking after the next generation should be valued by society in the same way that other useful jobs are valued monetarily.

Mishappening · 16/06/2018 21:41

A few unanswered questions:

  • How do you know it [women taking care] is not working?
  • How do you know how many rapes and assaults have been prevented by sensible precautions being taken by women?
  • Why should a perfectly normal decent man have to take the responsibility for preventing perverts doing what perverts do?
  • If we get so touchy about the language used that we hamper women's safety, then what is the point of that?

If he’s already doing these things, brilliant! Now he can pass it on to his friends and family and colleagues and rugby/golf mates and any other man he comes into contact with. And end this culture of women as victims

He is of course already not behaving in the ways you describe. Why would he? - that's another question! - to which your answer seems to be simply because he is male.

Do you see all men as animals who cannot control themselves and who need to make silly jokes and comments about women?

We do not do the cause of women's safety or equality by simply vilifying all men, as you appear to be doing. If we do that, what incentive might they have to behave decently? - they are damned in your eyes just by being male. Where is the respect for men?

I am not offended by the suggestion that my OH should behave decently - why ever might I be? I am simply saying that he cannot take responsibility for the action of perverts who happen to share his gender.

The gender pay gap is a disgrace and I am thankful that eventually we seem to be chipping away at that. I am lucky that my profession has had equal pay for decades.

Pumperthepumper · 16/06/2018 21:51
  1. because women are still being raped (already answered)

  2. I don’t really understand this question - I don’t know how many rapes have been prevented by women not walking home alone. I do know that it doesn’t always work though (see point 1)

  3. already answered - to keep us safe.

  4. already answered - it’s not working. Telling your daughter to be careful will not keep her safe. I know that’s a scary thing to think, I know that your daughter is the only thing you can control in this horrible situation - but until all men step up, you can modify her behaviour as much as you are able, it’ll make no difference to men’s attitude to her.

I can’t copy and paste on my phone just now but the incentive for all men to step up is because: it will keep women safe.

If your husband is already doing all the things on that list then good on him! He’s helping! He’s already taking responsibility!

And the ‘why would he?’ question - if all men followed that list then misogyny wouldn’t exist. So clearly, not all men are as keen as your husband to keep women safe.

Mishappening · 16/06/2018 22:09

This is a difficult conversation because you believe that you have answered questions, when actually you have not! Your answers make assumptions that are not based on logic/statsitics, but simply om your prejudice.

In summary I think we put back the cause of women's equality and safety by not placing the blame for acts of sexual violence on the perverts who perpetrate them, rather than scattering the blame amongst every male on the planet.

Equality comes from respect - if we do not respect men, why should they respect us?

SmileEachDay · 16/06/2018 22:11

mis

As a class, do you think women are oppressed?

AnxiousPeg · 16/06/2018 22:18

Where is the respect for men?

I'm sorry - did someone really ask this in a discussion about this topic?

It would be funny if it weren't so very, very depressing.

AnxiousPeg · 16/06/2018 22:22

If we do not respect men, why should they respect us?

ShockShockShock

Well, this is a new low.

Women questioning why the fuck we still have to live jn fear of men = not respecting men?

Your question has a really, really dark undertone. It's almost as if you're suggesting women are responsible for men's lack of respect for women. Which is sort of like saying women are to blame for men's appalling behaviour. Like rape.

Mishappening · 16/06/2018 22:47

Is it so wrong to suggest that the blame for acts of sexual violence lies squarely with those who perpetrate these acts; and that the men who do not make up this tiny minority are in fact deserving of our respect? - not because they do not do this, but simply for themselves.

I do not "live in fear of men" - why should I? It is undoubtedly the fact that some men are to be feared, but so are some women, so are some people in general.

Mishappening · 16/06/2018 22:54

AnxiousPeg - there is no dark undertone to my question. It is a simple question. The fact that this is interpreted as implying that women are to blame for "men's appalling behaviour" (which particular men?) reflects the extrapolations that occur and underlying assumptions of males as untrustworthy and generally unacceptable in their behaviour.It lies alongside the idea that saying that women should take care on their own in a park at night means that if they do get raped it is their fault - the one statement does not follow from the other.

If we do not want laddish behaviour from men, then we have to treat them as if we do not expect such behaviour and are interested in them for their own worth. Not lumping them all together as if they cannot be trusted.

echt · 16/06/2018 23:08

If we do not want laddish behaviour from men, then we have to treat them as if we do not expect such behaviour and are interested in them for their own worth

  1. You are holding women responsible for men's behaviour
  2. How about an example of the kind of behaviour you think women should be demonstrating.
RebelRogue · 16/06/2018 23:40

Woman walks home alone..gets raped.
Woman takes a cab instead "for safety"...gets raped.
Women lets a friend walk her home "for safety"...gets raped.
Woman stays over at a friend's house for "safety"...gets raped.
Woman stays at home...gets raped by her boyfriend.

"Make sure he rapes the other girl/woman" that's all this advice really comes down to,

Quantumblue · 17/06/2018 01:25

Just read a great line in an article.
It is easier to keep women afraid than men accountable.

OP posts:
Quantumblue · 17/06/2018 02:49

There is a vigil for Eurydice tomorrow night. The organisers are also suggesting we #lightthewayhome by putting a candle in our windows in memory of those who did not make it home.

OP posts:
IfyouseeRitaMoreno · 17/06/2018 07:23

If we do not respect men, why should they respect us?

Wow, just fucking wow!

So, according to your logic, an example of women not respecting men is lumping them all together and vilifying them and an example of men not respecting women is raping and murdering them.

The two are equally bad and the first one justifies the second one, yet not the other way round.

Seriously, that’s such a dangerous view. An Elliot Rodgers type of view. Ugh. Just ugh.

AnxiousPeg · 17/06/2018 07:28

Mis

You’re upset on men’s behalf about the extrapolations that occur in these arguments; because we recognise that there is an unacceptable level of male violence towards women, you are worried about the feelings of the good men?

First of all, I think the good men are ok with this. I know my husband is. He totally gets it. We have conversations about this. He’ll tell me something unacceptable that one of his colleagues said, and how he called them out on it (he’s good like that, and he knows this stuff is better received coming from him than from a woman - go figure). And when I shake my head in solidarity and say “fucking men” he knows that’s shorthand for “fucking patriarchal attitudes and the power they still have over mainstream male culture.”

He’s not offended. He knows the issue is important.

Secondly, the extrapolations are valid. It’s not as simple as a few bad men scattered amongst the good guys. The culture is insidious. Men have to consciously swim against the tide to escape from the prevailing culture, the culture that tells them what their rights over women are, and how important they are.

I have had in depth discussions with intelligent, educated male colleagues who still don’t get that male privilege is a thing. They don’t even recognise their own attitudes. No, that doesn’t make them rapists, but it does make them part of a culture that excuses rape without realising it. It makes it more likely that men will take a risk and push a woman’s boundaries, because these men see support around them, not censure.

Men are, I’m afraid, either part of the solution or part of the problem. There isn’t a sea of great, neutral guys, with a few bad ‘uns floating around.

IfyouseeRitaMoreno · 17/06/2018 07:39

AnxiousPeg, great post.

It is the patriarchy which treats men as flies, whilst giving them power and placing the blame for their actions squarely on women.

It is feminism which sees men as decent adults, capable of treating women with respect. It’s not feminism that looks at male violence, throws up its hands and “this is inevitable so the only thing we can do is protect yourself against it”. Because we believe that something can be done. That culture can be changed.

Feminists are not the man-haters here.

To be sick of  women being told to exercise 'situational awareness'
Mishappening · 17/06/2018 08:45

Thank you for your balanced post AnxiousPeg - a helpful contribution.

IfyouseeRitaMoreno - I agree that culture can be changed. But it is a slow process, and in the meantime I will give my DDs the sort of advice that might prevent them becoming victims. I am not prepared to sacrifice their well-being for a principle. Just because I wish to look out for their well-being does not mean that I subscribe to "
"Make sure he rapes the other girl/woman"" (RebelRogue) - I would of course wish to see any woman kept safe - that is another extrapolation that has no logical basis.

We teach children "Stranger/Danger" at school - sad but necessary.

The culture change needs to embrace mutual respect between men and women; and the danger at present is that the "well what can you expect, he is only a man" approach is unhelpful and will need burying at some point, before we reach a civilised middle way that avoids stereotyping.