To be sick of women being told to exercise 'situational awareness'

[Quantumblue]

In Melbourne we have just had another sickening rape and murder of a young woman. A 22 year old comedian, walking home at 10.30 pm after finishing a gig. Through an inner city park where thousands of people walk, run, cycle and hang out each week.
The police response has been to tell women to exercise caution and situational awareness.
So upset at this loss ( she was at school with my nephew) and so upset that the solution is for women to be more aware. We are all aware of danger every time we go out our front doors.
RIP Eurydice

How do you know it is not working? How do you know how many rapes and assaults have been prevented by sensible precautions being taken by women?

Because women are still being raped and murdered by men. It’s interesting that you picked up on that part of my post rather than the ‘men need to step up’ bit. Do you think men as a class are giving this as much thought as women as a class?

I am sorry Pumperthepumper but the conclusion that encouraging women to be aware and take care is not working is not demonstrated by the fact that "women are still being raped and murdered by men" - that is a complete logical inconsistency.

So - children are still getting measles, which therefore demonstrates that the measles vaccination does not work. Logical? - or nonsense? I am sure you would say nonsense - you would want to know if the children who got measles had been vaccinated.

We have, as I said, no idea how many rapes and murders have been prevented by woman taking care (not getting pissed out of their minds, not walking in alone in lonely places at night etc.), but personally (and on behalf of my daughters) I will go on taking those precautions.

Would it be great if no men were so warped as to want to rape and/or murder women? Of course it would. Is that going to happen any time soon in the real world? No. Do we have the remotest clue how to prevent a minute minority of men becoming these beasts? No.

Every parent of DDs should be arming them with the knowledge to keep themselves safe.

Does this mean (in the twisted logic of some folk) that we are blaming women for what happens to them. Absolutely no. The blame lies with the men who do it. But if you step out in front of a train, it is not the train's fault that you get killed - would it be better that trains were made so that anyone stepping in front of them would not get harmed???!!!

We have to be realists in this situation, especially in pursuit of the safety of our DDs.

Please send me your magic wand for making all men kind, considerate, sexually normal - I will be happy to pay the postage.

You didn’t answer this question:

Do you think men as a class are giving this as much thought as women as a class?

*Most SAHMs do most of the " donkey work" at home.

Are we raising rapists?*

Well you spectacularly missed my point didn’t you!

I just read that someone defined rapists as pervy men who cannot control their behaviour. That is incredibly ignorant.

Rapists know exactly what they are doing and they can control their behaviour. Most rapists are what most people would think of as ordinary guys, with partners/kids. One thing they certainly do know is that they have a bloody good chance of getting away with rape, and a lot of that is thanks to some of the attitudes on display here.

Well said, Music. I'm shocked at some of the attitudes too.

But if you step out in front of a train, it is not the train's fault that you get killed

How is stepping out of a train the same as walking through a park at 10.30pm?

Indeed - no man should get away with rape. But women not attempting to make themselves safe does not change that.

A train doesn’t have a choice!!! Bloody hells bells are we really comparing a speeding train to a man deciding to force himself on a woman now?

Do I think men give as much thought to rape as we do? I assume that you believe you know the answer to that question - I don't - how could I?

I do think that normal men are becoming more aware of what behaviour is unacceptable in relation to women as some of the long-overdue court cases against men who have exploited their power for sexual favours show. This can only be a good thing. Attitudes to women are changing - not as fast as we might wish, but progress is being made.

But men who rape in the sort of situation in which this poor women was killed are not normal men. They are not men who claim to have misunderstood whether the sex was consensual, they are aggressive and perverted and I doubt whether they can be easily changed. So - I will continue to help my DDs to behave in a way that minimizes their risks, whilst at the same time trying to help them to understand that this is a tiny minority of men, who as a group are in the main great.

But men who rape in the sort of situation in which this poor women was killed are not normal men.

Wrong again, I’m afraid. They absolutely are normal men, with families, jobs, responsibilities. It’s very, very dangerous and offensive to assume that these men are psychotic lunatics - they’re not. They’re normal men who see a woman as a target.

What do you think your average man is doing to stop women being raped? Your husband or work colleagues, for example?

I haven’t read the whole thread but being in OZ I’m aware of the case, it is completely heart breaking. A man has been arrested, we are told he is severely autistic although that has no bearing on the crime, his family have vocalised their absolute shock, horror and disgust, it’s just completely tragic, just unimaginable and sad.

But let's say a man goes to the Tenderloin District in San Francisco at 2 a.m. wearing a $5000 suit and carrying his life savings in his pocket.

This is not a similar situation at all.

Where I live in Maine, we have the loosest gun laws in America. We also are, in terms of violent crime, consistently one of the top three safest states in America. The violent crime rate, including rape, is less than 150 per 100,000 people, which is less than half the US national average, and a lot less than the UK national average, which is even higher.

There are other factors, of course, but the reality is that women don't need an escort everywhere they go at least in part because men know they're carrying their escort on them. Our gun violence rates are also very low: you don't draw when you know everyone else is packing, and that you live in a place where people have been familiar with guns since childhood and actually know how to use them responsibly...and effectively.

I realize that guns make people very nervous, and I respect that. I also realize that the UK, Australia, the US, and even different states within the US and regions in other countries are all different, and they should all have the right to make their own decisions about these things. But you know what makes ME nervous?

Statements like this: "practicing safety, such as going out with at least one other woman...”

No thank you. I shouldn't have to do that in order to keep men from attacking me. In the absence of either better restraints on men or better self-restraint from men, I prefer to defend myself.

Wrong again, I’m afraid. They absolutely are normal men, with families, jobs, responsibilities. It’s very, very dangerous and offensive to assume that these men are psychotic lunatics - they’re not. They’re normal men who see a woman as a target.

Yup. That’s the scary thing. I believe there is only a few situational differences between men that rape and men that don’t.

Rape happens in parks
In family homes
At parties
In nightclubs
In alleyways
In institutions
As a tool of war

It’s an expression of power, fuelled by entitled testosterone.

There is nothing about the women in any of these cases that caused it.

And yet the narrative remains the same.

I'm over the top for suggesting men stay at home? Can you hear yourself? Why the fuck are women told what to do to avoid men raping and murdering them, and that's ok, but you're frothing at the idea that men should do the same? Unbelievable.

"They’re normal men who see a woman as a target" - that is an oxymoron. A man defined as normal does not see women as a target. The fact that he might have a wife and family is not a definition of normal in this regard. It just means he has covered up his abnormality with a veneer of respectability.

It troubles that any man is regarded as a potential rapist - I am glad I do not have sons.

What can the average man (who he?) do to prevent rape? Is it the responsibility of the average man to prevent this, or child abuse, or bank robberies? The average man's responsibility is to lead a decent life.

This confusion that occurs between saying that women should be aware that rapists exist and take steps to make themselves as safe as they can is NOT the same as saying they are to blame. It is a nonsensical extrapolation.

"I shouldn't have to do that in order to keep men from attacking me. " - indeed you should not have to. Sadly it is the sensible thing to do. I would rather teach my DDs that they shouldn't have to but that sadly the world is what it is and they should do their best to take sensible precautions.

Is there any mother of daughters on here who does not try to help them to understand some of the evils in the world - including the ones that we would prefer did not exist?

I cannot get my head round the idea that trying to advise ones DDs about self-protection is somehow seen as a betrayal of women.

I live in the real world with all its imperfections. They have to live in it too. And I would like them to live.

What can the average man (who he?) do to prevent rape?

It’s amazing to me that you’d absolve men for a crime wholly committed BY MEN in a massive post about what women should be doing.

Here’s what the average man can do: don’t see women as a commodity- don’t visit strip clubs, don’t pay for lap dances, don’t be a sex tourist. Don’t stand for any ‘laddish banter’ - don’t talk about your bosses’ tits or how the CEO is gagging for it. Don’t stand for these things being said in your presence. Teach your children about proper consent, not ‘boys will be boys’ or ‘wearing her down’ until she agrees. Dont wolf whistle from cars. Don’t only care about these things because you have a daughter - care about them for womenkind. Be furious about the gender pay gap and maternity rights - in a nutshell, give a shit about women.

Men should be fucking appalled by these attacks and should be fighting with us for our safety. Not seeing it as our problem because we walked home alone.

Indeed, Pumper - “average man” could destroy the culture which supports the objectification of women and the oppression of women. If they all, these average men, just stopped doing that shit and utterly vilified other men who did then I could hand in my feminism card.

So yes. The solution lies with average men.

Well said Pumper

Just don't get this. Why should a perfectly normal decent man have to take the responsibility for preventing perverts doing what perverts do? The things you are listing are simply not done by any man that I know of any age - they would not dream of doing them. This denigrating of men in general because of the few bad ones does nothing to move things forward.

I agree that our culture (as with many others) has reinforced the objectification of women - but that is changing to the benefit of both genders. Let us not set these changes back by tarring all men (even poor Mr Average) with the same brush. All the Mr Averages that I know are decent concerned adults.

Sexual relations have always been troublesome in every culture - that is why religions through the ages have got so hung up on this. The need to acknowledge the strength of this instinct (in both men and women) but to find ways in which to control this for the smooth running of society has always been a challenge.

Your list is depressing enough, but the assumption that this is the norm is positively dangerous.

I, and many other mothers, reserve the right to do all I can to keep my DDs safe in this imperfect world. To suggest that women should behave as if the world is perfect and such perverts do not exist is quite crazy.

The twisted logic that says I should not try to keep them safe on the basis of the principle that they "should not have to" is beyond credence.

Just don't get this. Why should a perfectly normal decent man have to take the responsibility for preventing perverts doing what perverts do?

To protect women. To keep us safe.

But should he also take responsibility for preventing back robbers doing what they do?

I do not place a responsibility on ordinary decent men to deal with any crime? They just have to lead decent lives themselves.

But should he also take responsibility for preventing back robbers doing what they do?

Is bank robbing overwhelmingly done by men to women? If so, yes.