Horrible dilemma- please help.

[beclev24]

I have had many years of fertility treatment and through a combination of IVF and frozen embryos now have three wonderful DS's including a 6 month old baby. I am incredibly grateful and lucky to have them but Life with a baby and two rambunctious older boys is VERY VERY full on and exhausting. i often feel totally overwhelmed.

it's awful to say, but I have always craved a girl. This obviously doesn't mean that I love my boys any less- just that I have always wished I could raise a daughter and felt very disappointed and sad that I haven't had that chance. I've really tried to work out why I feel this way. I am not a gender essentialist. I don't believe htat there are hard wired differences between boys and girls and I have brought my sons up to believe that boys and girls can and should pursue any interests they enjoy. But still....I think bringing up a girl is a different experience from boys- mainly navigating a different set of social expectations and ones which I feel personally way more comfortable with. I adore my boys but a lot of their interests bore me senseless. I know this may also be true with a girl but I think that it would be easier to share old toys/ games/ interests with a girl growing up without constantly feeling as though you are making a point or fighting the tide of the whole of society etc etc. I would dearly love to share my experience of being a girl with my own daughter. But I just assumed that we woudl have no more children and so was coping wtih the fact that this would never happen.

Anyway after a lifetime of infertility, at age 45 while breastfeeding and using contraception I am unexpectedly 10 wks pregnant, wiht a girl (found out thro harmony test) a! I have no idea what to do. on the one hand, having another child may push us over the edge (DH feels this even more strongly than me)- we are exhausted, are boys are full on and very demanding, my career would never recover, my last pregnancy was risky, this one likely will be too, Im old etc etc. everything points away from having another child but yet this would be my longed for daughter, WWYD?? Ay advice/ perspectives welcome

Sorry but I can't get over the fact that you would abort a boy and not a girl. If this had been the other way around you would be flamed on here to the depths of hell!

I think this to - and what I find interesting is that I think if OP had said she came from a culture that valued boys more highly and so wanted to abort a girl she'd be told that that culture was barbaric, backwards and wrong. But our culture of believing in horrible statements like 'a son is a son until he has a wife, a daughter is a daughter for the whole of your life' and that women will naturally have much more connection with their daughters than their sons because boys and girls have different interests - beliefs that are also both rooted in sexist expectations of girls and harmful to them - are not just accepted but actively endorsed by a lot of people on this thread.

*too

Anyone who says "I treated my children the same, boys and girls are innately different" should read this thread and reflect on the expectations this girl has on her from the 10th week of pregnancy, embryonic! From being a "lady" and a calming influence, to having different interests to her brothers. Even if the parents aren't like OP, girls are surrounded by these expectations from so early.

The ideas of how daughters are different from sons in this thread makes me feel sad. Gender conditioning starting with the embryo.

And everyone saying OP will cope- is "coping" the level we aim for families to operate at?

I agree that if OP was pregnant with a long awaited son after 3 daughters and said she’d abort a girl, the responses would be quite different.

I think you've been extraordinarily honest here, OP. The trouble is that Mumsnet is a place where people like to take refuge in very simple black-and-white ideas of right and wrong, which ignore the complexities of the ways that we often feel. Complexity, being conflicted, or wanting something that we kind of know is wrong at some level, are not experiences that sit well with a site where virtue-signalling is the order of the day.

It seems clear to me from your posts that you are more than aware of the gender complexities here, and that you feel a certain way but you're not sure why. It's also clear that you're facing a decision that lies smack in the middle of emotional and pragmatic concerns. I think it's important that you take time out at this poing and perhaps see a counsellor: you sound very self-reflective and self-aware and I suspect that a very short time sitting and thinking about why you feel the way you do would provide you with some clear answers.

I am absolutely not a gender essentialist (and I am averse to the brand of feminism in the feminist forum on this site), but I do think that it's important to acknowledge the structural, social features that shape gendered experience. Yes, you can raise boys as girls in the home, but the moment that they encounter culture outside of that home - whether via media or in real life - a set of gendered expectations unfortunately descend. And those expectations do shape experience. While society retains gender as a strong category of identity and expectation, it will be different raising a girl to raising a boy, and efforts to undo this in the home, while laudable, may be of limited effect. I don't think that you should feel bad about thinking that raising a girl will be qualitatively different from raising a boy - it seems to me to be common sense that it will be.

Your baby is longed for, will be loved and cherished, you do not want a termination at all. Your boys will love a baby sister. Resources may be stretched for a while but you say it is manageable.
Please, stop asking, just accept and enjoy.

You can't help the way you feel and there will always be people on here with string right/wrong moral ideas, however that might not be helpful to the OP who has every right to their own opinion.

This isn't about what is right or wrong for others but for you, it might help to plan out in your head how the two options might go. and time is of the essence. Help and support with the older children could make a real difference, so looking at practicalities like possible support from family or brought in, and discussion with your husband and doctor about your health if is is difficult, would be the best way to go.

I had a girl after 3 boys. She is just as insane as the boys are. In fact, I think maybe even more so, as she feels the need to keep up with them, even though she's a fraction of their age.

If you want another child, go ahead. But I would say you are very misguided to think that raising a girl will be different/easier than raising a boy. In fact, there are many days when raising my girl is harder - who knew doing a toddler girl's hair would be so challenging?!?!

Oh OP - what a dilemma. I am one of those who feel a little more than uncomfortable that you would abort this child if he was a boy. But - thats my feelings and it does not matter what i feel - what matters is what you feel.

I dont want to scare you - my cousin had the harmony test and they confirmed it was a girl (much longed for after her son)..... a few months later, a routine scan showed he was a boy - she was absolutely devastated. She doesnt love him any less now hes here, but if she has known he was a boy, i dont think she would have carried on.

Good luck OP - this is a tough decision.

If you would terminate a boy because you can't face the idea of parenting four children in that case, then a girl is, IMO, no different.

It's four children you can't face. Sex of child shouldn't factor into it at all. From the way you've described it, a fourth pregnancy is a risk to your health, the family equilibrium and your marriage. That being said, I think you'll make everybody's life a misery if you terminate, because you'll still be chasing the dream of a girl for years to come.

@beclev24

You have still not answered the question that I asked ...

What if the gender test is wrong, and it's another boy?

What then?

Are you going to answer that? Or are cherry picking, and only answering and responding to questions that suit you?

OP doesn't have to answer every question that's put to her. This is a social media forum, not a court of law.

Op, that's very tough.

I think given all I've heard from you, I'd probably keep the baby. I just think you'd regret a termination in years to come.

However I'd try be as imaginative as possible when it comes to childcare/help and put the boys in preschool or get an aupair etc. I think you owe it to yourself. Life will be very hard for a year or so, but hopefully will level out as the boys get older and more independent.

Best of luck with whatever you decide.

Edited to add, I do empathise though, I have a toddler boy (and a girl) and OMG is he a piece of work ;)

If you support the right to an abortion, then it is COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY IRRELEVANT why a person chooses to abort.

Hugs for the OP such conflicting messages on here.

If you support the right to an abortion, then it is COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY IRRELEVANT why a person chooses to abort.

Again, this is true legally but not necessarily morally. Believing a woman should have the legal right to abort for any reason isn't the same thing as believing that there's no such thing as an unethical abortion. You can think someone should have the right to do something while also thinking that they are profoundly wrong to use that right.

What a difficult and very personal decision! My two penneth worth -

You say you've always longed for a daughter. If you don't continue the pregnancy, will you always be wondering and longing for what could of been? Also, recovering from a termination can be surprisingly more challenging mentally than you might think. I don't know if you've had one before? But in my experience and the experience of loved ones, even when you know you've 100% made the right decision for your circumstances it can still leave you feeling incredibly fragile and all over the place afterwards for a little while. It can put a lot of strain on relationships. This coupled with knowing it's the longed for daughter would be too much for me personally.

As others have said the jump from three to four isn't that extreme, they tend to just slot in, though the age gap will make a difference.

Wishing you all the best whatever you decide to do. It's not black and white, there's no definitive right or wrong answer. Whatever you decide can be the right decision if that's the path you choose to take.

It's not true legally. We don't have abortion on demand in the UK, in one part of the UK we don't have abortion at all! Why is very relevant under the Abortion Act, it has to be for one of the health related reasons, as certified by 2 doctors. If a patient chooses to lie to access abortion illegally, which abortion on the grounds of sex is, then that isn't just unethical, it's illegal, 'child destruction'.

The options in termination ethics are not 'abortion for any reason' vs 'abortion for no reason', and our legal system recognises that.

It's actually pretty grey legally, isn't it? The most used reason for abortion by a long way is 'risk to the mental health of the mother', and while, again, I don't like the idea of sex-selective abortions at all, I don't see why not wanting to carry a baby of a particular sex is inherently less of a threat to your mental health than not wanting to carry a baby at all. If you could get two doctors to sign off on it as a mental health issue then it's legal.

If you were open that the baby's sex was the reason, that you'd keep one sex but not the other, I think you'd struggle to find one doctor, let alone two. I'm not saying it's impossible, but doctors are mostly very ethical people.

The OP could certainly access abortion though, as she is clear her family is stretched, and she doesn't want a fourth child. Unless it's a certain girl, when everything changes.

Agree with some of the other points - it just doesn't sit right with me, sorry, that you would abort a boy but not a girl.

I'm not saying have a termination, but you need to look at the bigger picture. Think about your existing children, your marriage (it affects your husband as well), your finances.

Honest question OP, would you have terminated a girl if the results did come back positive for chromosomal abnormalities? I'm not clued up on this test, how accurate is it? What if really is another boy? What if the baby has a disability? How will you cope? How would you have felt is you were expecting B/G twins?

To those implying all women secretly want a girl...what a load of bollocks. I have a son, we are TTC another baby soon. I couldn't give a flying fuck if I have another boy, or a girl. We will only be having 2 (unless it's a multiple pregnancy). As long as they grow up to be happy and healthy, I don't care what's between their legs. Theyll be raised the same, with the same opportunities and support.

Sorry to throw it out there but its also very possible this longed for daughter could feel she is in the wrong body one day & opt for gender reassignment. Then where would that leave your relating to her more & sharing your experience as a girl?

That is not meant to be cruel either. It's just a different & very relative perspective seeing as you are pinning a huge amount soley on her gender.

Whatever you choose however I wish you all the best, it cannot be an easy situation

"As long as they're healthy." I'm delighted with my children, even if they have health problems, whatever their sex.

It does sound like you'll be delighted with your daughter, OP, so I don't think you should terminate. But I am glad you're open to getting some counselling, for the sake of all the children.