To be filled with fury at increase in measles cases

[GivenAndDenied]

We've had a letter sent round my DD school recently, telling us of an increase nationwide, and in our county, of measles, and offering advice on what to do to protect children.

I get that there are some children (and adults) who cannot be vaccinated for genuine health reasons relating to other existing health conditions. And my fury is absolutely not aimed at them. If everyone else is responsible and vaccinates their kids, then these vulnerable members of our society who cannot be vaccinated will be hopefully protected by herd immunity.

But it makes me furious that because of people listening to woo and bollocks about vaccines, that we are having an increase in life-threatening illnesses, and getting letters about how best to protect your children. How best to protect your children is to goddamn vaccinate them.

So are those who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons. I know they have no choice but the end result is the same if somebody hasn't been vaccinated.

But not to the same extent.

In a high school with 1000 children 1 or 2 may not be able to have vaccines for medical reasons. If everyone else in the school has been vaccinated then those two are safe from catching the vaccinated for disease in the school.

If 100 children are not vaccinated, including the 2 with medical conditions, that brings a risk of infection.

As antivaxers do not normally vacinate one child and not another then the antivaxers' children are at risk of contracting a disease from a sibling, who may be at a different school / nursery.

Add to that children who cannot be vaccinated often have impaired immune systems the risk of them contracting the disease from contact is higher and the risk of them being more seriously ill is also higher.

This means that the child who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons will be off school if they are ill whereas the antivaxers' child might be sent in with a mild case of disease X.

Dappled . I'm no anti vaxer. My dh works in big pharma and I'm a qualified vet nurse but the garlic in the ear does work. I've done it plenty of times but the trick is to catch it early which isn't so easy with toddlers- agreed, as they don't tell you they are in pain till it's too bad.

If you want to immunise your dc then that's fine, if you don't then that's fine too.

The point of the thread is that quite a lot of people think no, it’s not fine too. Because not only are people putting their own children at risk (which society tends to have views on) but they are putting others at risk.

Choices are not equally valid simply because choice exists.

From the CDC on varicella vaccine:

It is not known how long a vaccinated person is protected against varicella. But, live vaccines in general provide long-lasting immunity.

Several studies have shown that people vaccinated against varicella had antibodies for at least 10 to 20 years after vaccination. But, these studies were done before the vaccine was widely used and when infection with wild-type varicella was still very common.

A case-control study conducted from 1997 to 2003 showed that 1 dose of varicella vaccine was 97% effective in the first year after vaccination and 86% effective in the second year. From the second to eighth year after vaccination, the vaccine effectiveness remained stable at 81 to 86%. Most vaccinated children who developed varicella during the 8 years after vaccination had mild disease.

A clinical trial showed that children with 2 doses of varicella vaccine were protected 10 years after being vaccinated. Fewer people had breakthrough varicella after 2 doses compared with 1 dose. The risk of breakthrough varicella did not increase over time.

Takeaways:

• No one knows how long the current two-vaccine protocol will be effective. When evidence showed that single-dose approach needed improvement, the protocol was changed. Citing studies about the single-dose vaccine’s effectiveness is irrelevant and dishonest in the context of a conversation about whether it is beneficial to vaccinate now.

• Some posters read ‘at least’ and substitute ‘only’ with depressing regularity.

@StarUtopia

Yes I’m aware some that get the men C vac will still get it. What I don’t get it why you think the miniscule risk of vac damage is higher then the risk of actual death, disability or disfigurement from catching the disease? Have you seen this picture and would it change your mind anout getting a smallpox vac if you know the child who had the disease is at risk from bran damage, deafness, blindness if he does survive?

And that video - Are you serious right now? That video you posted is exactly the sort of scare mongering irresponsible shite that causes outbreaks. This person’s comment sums it up for me:

@itstimeforanamechange yeah we all know a risk exists - that’s why sensible parents of children in families with a history of problems arising from vaccinations DON’T vaccinate. Which is why herd immunity is so important.

But I’m just some virtue signalling idiot right? I don’t actually give a shit about immunocompromised people or other children at all, right?

My brother nearly died as a newborn with whooping cough, our neighbours didn’t vaccinate and passed it on when he was a day old. We are lucky, he lived and he had no problems. I have some hearing loss from ruebella - but at least I’m immune now. PS I had it before the MMR came out. But I don’t have to have a personal history to have a sense of social responsibility.

God, just saw this today and it made me think of this thread - really shocking video and photo of two boys exposed to smallpox, one vaccinated and one not

www.snopes.com/fact-check/one-vaccinated-one-not-smallpox/

What I don’t get it why you think the miniscule risk of vac damage is higher then the risk of actual death, disability or disfigurement from catching the disease?

Because we have a family issue of awful reactions to vaccinations, that's why. My brother nearly died. Left with some brain damage.

The disease being talked about on this thread is measles. Not smallpox.

Measles has never been anywhere near on a par with smallpox so why offer a photo of that?

As for the video, yes, it's scary. Not scaremongering. The fact you don't like it doesn't make it fake.

The fact you don't like it doesn't make it fake.

Quite right. It’s the fact that it’s packed full of bullshit that makes it bullshit.

Give that it’s so full of fiction, it’s surprising that it’s not even a little bit scary. I guess it is to those who don’t know how to check source material?

The problem with using the internet for your research is that the information on there is heavily biased towards the anti-vaxx movement....largely due to the enormous amount of user generated content. The anti-vaxx movement are very good at presenting things in a professional, official looking manner and interpreting research in a way that suits their agenda. It's virtually impossible to get a balanced view on the subject via Google.

it's not bullshit.

You might not like it, but there you go.

It's as if you're sat there sticking your fingers in your ears going 'la la la'.

Are you genuinely that naive to be believe that vaccines are 100% safe and made from lovely ingredients?!!!!

Yes, dear, it is. Even a cursory canter through the source material shows it misrepresents, omits vital information, conflates medical and legal terms, and basically couldn’t be less evidence-based if it tried.

If you’re actually interested in facts, start with the actual Supreme Court opinion they cite, then work your way through to some of the science. Then ask yourself ‘why are they lying? What’s their goal?’

Are you genuinely that naive to be believe that vaccines are 100% safe and made from lovely ingredients?!!!!

Oh no, are we back to this? Again, no one is saying vaccines are 100% free of adverse impacts. And you know that, because it’s been pointed out previously. But the evidence shows that the positive impact (avoided risk of disease) far, far outweighs the negative impact (very small risk of serious adverse effects).

There have been some academic, impartial studies done on the quality of information available online and it explicitly states that the anti -vaccine movement are very good at misrepresenting medical information and passing it off as medical fact.

@StarUtopia

If your family has a history of awful reactions THEN I’M NOT TALKING ABOUT YOU AM I?! Why is this so hard to comprehend?

How many times do I, as a person that vaccinates my children, have to state the following:

1. if you have history of bad reactions to vaccines and have been recommended not to give them then I’m not talking about you
2. yes I know there is a risk, hence why I mentioned and agree with the parental ‘risk assessment’. Have never heard of a single person having an adverse effect from a vac stronger than irritability
3. that video you posted is pure anti vac bullshit which makes me doubt your claim to ‘history of bad reactions’ because you don’t actually need a shitty video to back up your claims when that is true
4. reading stuff on the internet is not ‘research’ videos posted on Facebook is not ‘research’. Start with reading peer reviewed medical and legal documents about your concerns.
5. I assume you don’t give your kids medicine or antibiotics that also have less than ‘lovely ingredients’ in them? Or do you let them suffer in pain for fear of putting stuff you don’t understand in their bodies?

If I sound angry it’s because I am. Did you read that I posted my newborn brother nearly died from whooping cough? Three children in one household and one adult had it and passed it to him because they didn’t think it was important to mention to my mum that they were ill. We shared lifts to school and back - but they visited the day after my brother was born anyway.

Three weeks in hospital sleeping on a mat that sounded an alarm when he stopped breathing. Having to have his breathing artificially restarted.

Honestly don’t know how you have the nerve to call me naive and then post bullshit like that video!

But I don’t have to have a personal history to have a sense of social responsibility

Good for you. I still wonder if you would give up your time to give a parent a break whose child was disabled due to vaccine damage.

My son was vaccinated because I thought it was best for him. I expect other parents to make decisions for their children that they think are best for them. You can say what you like, but I doubt very much that most people vaccinate (or not) because they are thinking of the wider picture, they are thinking of their own children and their children alone.

I still maintain that if they saw a child with a disability they wouldn't help. And therefore, that those who go on about a duty to society are virtue signalling.

Until 2017, there were 6,000 cases submitted to the vaccine damage payments act board. That's 6,000 since 1979. So in the grand scheme of things, not many.

Don’t know why you keep going on about disabled children. Do lots of people give up time to help out parents of disabled children a break? I’m not a carer, I’m not a foster carer, I have no friends with disabled children. I held plenty of parties and play dates with the children in my twins SALT class - all of them had varying degrees of speech issues, some connected to other disabilities.

And you’re right, my primary concern is my own children. My secondary concern is being a decent member of my community - which means I also don’t act like a dickhead in public places, or make loads of noise in my house that can be heard next door, or leave my table covered in rubbish when I go to McDonald’s. None of which is illegal, all of which is a choice and would make me a totally selfish person.

Good for you. I still wonder if you would give up your time to give a parent a break whose child was disabled due to vaccine damage.
My children are vaccinated.
My dd has narcolepsy due to pandremix. She has other disabilities that are nothing to do with vaccines.
My uncle died a few years ago due to post polio syndrome. He contracted it just after the war.
My sister is partially deaf and partially sighted due to measles. (We're old and were born before the vaccine in '68).
I'm immunocompromised.
I'm not virtue signalling having my family vaccinated. I'm sensible.

You didn't read things that I posted either - like my son (who WAS vaccinated) was seriously ill with whooping cough? Or my own brother very nearly died.

You have every right to be angry and ensure you are vaccinated yourself - if that's what you believe to be the best course of action based on any research you have also done (assuming you have)

But no one really has a right to tell anyone else what to do with regarding vaccinating. It's the old, if you're so convinced vaccines work why are you so bothered about the small % who don't?

reading stuff on the internet is not ‘research’ videos posted on Facebook is not ‘research’. Start with reading peer reviewed medical and legal documents about your concerns.

There are plenty of those that could be posted to show the dangers of vaccines. I hate this snobbery about research on the internet. We're in 2018 ffs. How else would you like people to research? Visit a library and ask for a hard copy to read through 000's of pages? You are able to do that online you know?

You don't even have to do that much research initially. Look at the ingredients on the vaccine insert and then READ THE SIDE EFFECTS as posted by the vaccine manufacturers themselves. Shocker.

Go and find a vaccine damaged child and speak to their parents (you actually don't have to look too far btw) The saddest bit being that so many parents don't realise it's the vaccines that have caused this damage. All of this will come to light in years to come mark my words!

oh and to your no5....no...I rarely give Calpol. The body is designed to produced a temperature to fight an infection. Why the hell anyone would want to bring that temperature down and lengthen the time that infection is in the body is beyond me!

As for antibiotics, they are massively over prescribed in this country which is why we are heading towards a crisis. I would give them IF my doctor strongly advised them. But if they are able to get over it without them, I would hold back first.

Guess what though? My kids are rarely ill. Strong immune systems. As they're only partly vaccinated they haven't been damaged by all those toxins!

@starutopia it's not snobbery to dismiss the majority of internet based research on subjects such as this. Those of us who are credible, academic researchers can see how facts and figures are manipulated and presented in a way that is heavily biased towards a particular cause.

Vaccinations is one of those topics....information on the internet relating to vaccines is heavily biased towards to anti-vaccine movement. Mainly because it is 2018 and the majority of the information on there is user generated - meaning it's not regulated or verified . This was found by a credible, peer reviewed piece of academic research

Guess what though? My kids are rarely ill. Strong immune systems. As they're only partly vaccinated they haven't been damaged by all those toxins!
Guess what though? My kids are rarely ill either despite being fully vaccinated. I guess they have strong immune systems AND the benefit of being protected against particularly nasty diseases through being immunised. I recognise that we are incredibly lucky as my children's uncompromised immune systems mean that vaccinating them is possible.

@StarUtopia

Yes I did read about your kids hence why I said if there is a history I’m not talking about you. In capital letters.

Why do you take a sentence and run in a completely off tangent direction with it? So you don’t give calpol for temps - I assume though you’d give it to alleviate the pain of an earache, for example? So you don’t give your kids antibiotics unless stated by the doctor? Congratulations, this is all sensible parents in the UK. Your kids don’t get ill precisely because you haven’t ‘filled them with toxins’ - seriously?! MY kids also don’t get ill yet have had all vaccs including flu and at the normal schedule.

As for your question about internet sources - I’m sorry you simply cannot be serious. Did you know 87% of all data quoted on the internet unless the source is mentioned is made up?

The saddest bit being that so many parents don't realise it's the vaccines that have caused this damage. All of this will come to light in years to come mark my words!
Rude, patronising and psychic, that's something else, right there!

Completely agree, and I’ve been up all night with DC2 who had her 1st jabs yesterday.