To be filled with fury at increase in measles cases

[GivenAndDenied]

We've had a letter sent round my DD school recently, telling us of an increase nationwide, and in our county, of measles, and offering advice on what to do to protect children.

I get that there are some children (and adults) who cannot be vaccinated for genuine health reasons relating to other existing health conditions. And my fury is absolutely not aimed at them. If everyone else is responsible and vaccinates their kids, then these vulnerable members of our society who cannot be vaccinated will be hopefully protected by herd immunity.

But it makes me furious that because of people listening to woo and bollocks about vaccines, that we are having an increase in life-threatening illnesses, and getting letters about how best to protect your children. How best to protect your children is to goddamn vaccinate them.

You are not being unreasonable.

I know a family (not in the UK) whose 2 month old died because of measles.

This is true in theory but not necessarily applied. My cousin's children (in US) aren't vaccinated and she just had to sign a form to say they were- no proof required.

That's weird; in our school district you have to show an immunization record from the doctor. I hope there aren't any immunocompromised kids at that school.

Does it depend on state?? I know a few families who have to prove their kids are vaccinated...the one child that isn't has to have proof from the doctor of a medical exemption

This is true in theory but not necessarily applied. My cousin's children (in US) aren't vaccinated and she just had to sign a form to say they were- no proof required.

That's the short version of the story.

The long version is that if chickenpox, other similar communicable diseases are diagnosed among anyone in the school, your cousin's children will be excluded from school until 14 days after the diagnosis. They could be off school for months.

At this point, most 'anti-vax' parents suddenly decide to vaccinate their children. I have watched this happen in our local schools twice now.

Your cousin's children are also likely to be unable to attend a lot of camps, would not be allowed to attend most boarding schools, and may well struggle to be allowed to attend college.

@StarUtopia

There are well founded public health reasons for not vaccinating against chickenpox that do not apply to measles.

Chickenpox can absolutely be a serious illness and may cause death. However, the risk of disability or death as a result of chickenpox infection are lower than for measles. And, where serious complications do occur they often result from 2ndary bacterial infection - for which there are antibiotics. The chickenpox virus itself can be attenuated by aciclovir. There is no treatment for measles other than IVIG.

I don't think that the chickenpox vaccine has as higher rate of lasting immunity as the measles vaccine. So one concern re introducing a chickenpox vaccine, particularly if uptake wasn't very good, is that as a consequence a higher number of people would acquire chickenpox later in life. Chickenpox is much more dangerous later in life. At the moment, it is so prevalent that almost everyone is exposed during childhood - and hardly anyone is left to be exposed as an adult. But if 70% were immunised, then the remaining 30% would "miss out" on childhood chickenpox and have a much higher likelihood of the more severe chickenpox infection of adulthood. Even if nearly everyone was immunised, if the immunisation doesn't last forever, the same would hold true.

Whereas measles is the most dangerous in immunocompromised people but otherwise is not more dangerous in adolesence/adulthood than it is in childhood. In fact, the most ghastly complication of measles (SSPE) is more likely, the younger you are when you acquire the illness.

Lastly, exposure to children with chickenpox attenuates and reduces the frequency of shingles outbreaks in previously infected adults. So if we immediately reduces the number of childhood chickenpox cases, then shingles would go up. Shingles is also miserable and sometimes dangerous (can threaten sight if it occurs in the ophthalmic branch of the trigeminal nerve).

The NHS did produce an information sheet on why chickenpox immunisation isn't currently on the schedule - think it can be found online. Obviously, if certain health or demographic factors changed, then the recommendation might change.

And for some people, immunisation against chickenpox certainly is worth pursuing - I would suggest that a person who has reached adolescence without acquiring chickenpox should seek immunisation.

Please anyone correct any errors, as I'm just going on what I can recall.

My child recently had measles, my child was/is vaccinated against measles and because so many people believe you only get it if you haven't been vaccinated we've had some very unpleasant interactions with people who have been quite vocal about us risking their child's life. Please don't assume that anyone who gets it isn't vaccinated.

I was recently told by antivaxer that all the children in Alder Hey children's hospital are in there because of vaccinations. Yep folks every child who had a disability, serious illness etc all were there due to vaccines...

In my area (am a Paediatrician) we are currently managing a local outbreak of measles and have had several admissions as a result.

The outbreak may well have been introduced by children from other countries, yes. After all, no infectious illness comes from nowhere. Why, though do children travelling from other countries bring the virus? It is precisely because rates of immunisation are lower in those countries. If we want measles to become endemic in the UK too, we only have to emulate those countries by lowering our own immunisation rate.

All of the admissions to the ward that have taken place in the last several months have been among unimmunised children and it is these children who are spreading the disease to one another.

It is ludicrous to claim that such outbreaks are not related to the decision not to immunise children when almost exclusively the virus is being brought in by unimmunised children, spread by unimmunised children, and infecting unimmunised children.

The parents have sometimes made a conscious, ongoing decision not to immunise, sometimes they have made the decision at the time of the Wakefield scare and then not thought about it again, or sometimes they may have simply missed out on the routine immunisation for some reason and then not organised a follow up. They aren't terrible, horrible people. The two things from my anecdotal experience that they share is a deep regret over not choosing to immunise against measles, and an urgency to immunise their other children before they too are infected. We have not even had a serious adverse outcome (yet). But even if you escape serious complications the illness is absolutely miserable and causes a huge amount of stress and anxiety to parents (from my observation). I would really encourage people to put themselves in the position of these parents. Many are well educated and will spend the rest of their child's childhood haunted by the (very, very unlikely but terrifying) spectre of SSPE.

@2pandasandapig

What a horrible, horrible experience for you.

Really, even if your child wasn't immunised - lecturing the parents after the fact is rather cruel and pointless. By then they know all too well about measles. I haven't met any parents (in the small case study series of my experience) who don't have deep regrets without the need to be cajoled.

It is more important to inform parents whilst they still have the chance to protect their child with immunisation. And to not underestimate most parents real conviction to do the best thing for their child. If anything, it is the parents who have made the decision not to immunise and have faced the consequences of measles as a result who are best placed to make the warning. But I think it is a very brave and difficult thing to do as they may be feeling a lot of shame, guilt and face the judgments of others if they do so.

I didn't vaccinate because there is no need for babies to be immunised against rubella or mumps.

I would have vaccinated against measles had a single vaccine been available

I didn't vaccinate because there is no need for babies to be immunised against rubella or mumps.

Why is there no need? Do we no longer worry about rubella in pregnant women?

Two people I’m related to don’t vaccinate their kids because ‘The government can’t make me and I don’t feel like it’s something I want to do’

I have problems containing my rage.

In most children, mumps is pretty mild. But it can cause serious, lasting problems, including:

Meningitis (swelling of the tissue covering the brain and spinal cord)
Deafness (temporary or permanent)
Encephalitis (swelling of the brain)
Orchitis (swelling of the testicles) in males who have reached puberty
Oophoritis (swelling of the ovaries) and/or mastitis (swelling of the breasts) in females who have reached puberty
In rare cases, mumps is deadly.

Why is there no need? Do we no longer worry about rubella in pregnant women?

women of childbearing age are therefore the ones who should be vaccinated, not babies.

It astounds me people think babies should take a risk, no matter how small, for adult women.

sometimes they have made the decision at the time of the Wakefield scare and then not thought about it again

Well that can’t be the case currently as those children from the Wakefield scare era are now in their twenties?

As for the children who have been ill with measles being unvaccinated, it’s odd that in this thread alone there have been more people saying their vaccinated child, or themselves as a vaccinated person, has been ill with measles or shown to not be immune after all.

I’m not saying you are being untruthful Shrimpi, but I don’t think the few cases you have seen are necessarily indicative of the overall picture.

Who told you it wasn't necessary to vaccinate against rubella and mumps?

The Wakefield scandal was still around when mine were small and the oldest is 15. I remember as we have autism in our family so I spoke to the health visitor in depth before deciding to have it.

Bluebird my Mum had mumps while young and was very very ill with it!

It astounds me people think babies should take a risk, no matter how small, for adult women.

But curiously, you are prepared to risk measles for your child to avoid a much smaller risk of vaccine damage. Is there any evidence that vaccine damage is more likely from MMR than from single dose measles vaccine?

The US differs in state to state.

Forty-seven states allow for either religious or personal belief exemptions, or some states allow for both.

Thanks for the thread. It reminded me that my DD is due her boosters, so called GP surgery and managed to get it sorted today. DD is a bit grumpy now though. But at least she’s protected now.
And no, YANBU.

Whilst I definitely do not want my child to be that '1', how many children each year are killed crossing the road? In a car accident? Drowning? etc etc etc. Life is risky. Do we all stop taking our kids in cars because we can prevent them dying in a road accident that way?

Absolutely. That's why I don't bother with anything like car seats or seat-belts to help lessen or eradicate the chance of injury or death to my child if I was to have an accident.

There are some anti-vaxxers who refuse things like anti-d or vit k injections as well. They also refuse tetanus shots and even rabies shots for their kids if they get bitten by wild animals.

Arseholes are below contempt imo.

The idea that that is a magic fix all with no unwanted consequences - well we really have no idea.

Literally no one has said that. And we are fully aware there could be consequences but accept those risks on the basis of (personally) no history at all of vaccination damage or even discomfort.

I am far from convinced that there are no long term issues from such intense schedules.

Can I ask why? Are you an immunologist? A doctor, even? Btw - to counter your anecdotal evidence - my three boys have had all vaccines to the normal schedule and have no allergies, asthma, eczema, or generally any issues at all. One had ‘suspected’ mumps (having had the MMR) but the swab said not.

I’m not saying you are being untruthful Shrimpi, but I don’t think the few cases you have seen are necessarily indicative of the overall picture.

Well...you could be right, but surely you have to agree a doctor seeing multiple cases (or even just reports) has a better idea than a handful of mums on a parenting website? Who have probably been drawn in to the subject by the title?

Finally, it is astonishingly ignorant to say you won’t vaccinate because it’s not your responsibility to protect pregnant women.

And the herd immunity “greater good” argument cannot make me overlook the risks to my child as an individual

This. I get fed up with all the sanctimonious claptrap on here. I've posted enough on here under other usernames but bullet point:

Vaccination is economically sensible. It is cheaper to prevent illness than cure it or deal with side effects. And it is better for the economy to have parents working than looking after sick children.

However, vaccinations can cause problems. The fact that vaccine damage legislation exists proves that.

Therefore there is a risk. It is up to parents to balance the risk they feel the illnesses present versus the risks of the vaccination. Some illnesses are no-brainers like meningintis (for me). I think for other illnesses it is more nuanced eg mumps for girls or rubella for boys.

Not for random MNers who want to show how much they are worrying about society. No you don't. If you saw a disabled child on the street and someone told you they'd suffered after having a vaccine you'd hurry swiftly on and and thank goodness it wasn't yours. Lets not be hypocritical.

And as I said right at the outset you can get illnesses even if you've been vaccinated. So don't judge. Just be glad your child is vaccinated and they aren't ill.

Fully agree