to ask how do private schools produce such "confident" kids / adults and how I can do it at home?

[dragontwo]

Ok, I have my reservations about private schools, but I recognise that often they produce kids / adults with high self confidence and self assurance.

I want to know how they do this, how they drill this confidence into them, and how I can replicate any beneficial aspects of this at home into my own kid (state schooled)?

What do they say / do / teach that encourages them to be so confident and expect success?

I know there are down sides to everything but I'm just thinking about good ideas I can help my kid. NB I'm no tiger mother and do my best to encourage my kid as it is already but just looking for ideas and general thoughts on how it's done!!

Just curious!

The overwhelming number of children who go to private school come from very similar backgrounds to the one my children come from. Not all, but the overwhelming majority. And it is the privileged background they are lucky enough to come from that gives them the basis of self confidence-whatever school they go to.
And yes, there are many bursaries and scholarships to private schools, but they are mostly very small. They broaden access ^a bit

@bertrandrussell if you took on board the valid points other people patiently and politely write in response to your various inflammatory statements, and respond in like, people might understand your point of view slightly better. For example:

Well, if you get into the grammar school and like that sort of thing, yes. My ds didn't. His school would have given most mumsnetters canniptions. 37% FSM. 34% 4 and above in English and Maths... - my concern about my local schools would be gangs and knives, I wouldn't have "conniptions" about the percentages you give at all. My dc would probably do well whatever the percentages were in terms of academics but no I don't want to put them in a school where gangs and knives are prevalent. Is that so unreasonable?

But people patiently write a lot of rubbish.

Everyone who sends their kids private on MN seems to live somewhere where the only choice was a failing school with many issues or a private. No one is criticizing the choice to send your kid private, but repeating the fact that the schools are what give the kids confidence because of all the "wonderful activities" they do is rubbish.

@topcat1980 you say The average bursary is f £5,345 a year each, but the average school fee is £13,194 please could you provide a link to your source? And clarify if the area covered by the averages quoted is the whole of the UK?

@bertrandrussell you say The overwhelming number of children who go to private school come from very similar backgrounds to the one my children come from please could you provide a link to your source?!

I don't think fear of speaking in public or giving presentations is necessarily down to confidence.
On the occasions I've had to do it I had to take a beta blocker. I think it's more like stage fright which affects some confident and some unconfident people but not others.

Average school fee:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-33535216

Average bursary:

www.ft.com/content/aceb3e46-0d48-11e6-b41f-0beb7e589515

You don't need to know that when fees are that high that the vast majority of children in private schools are from affluent backgrounds.

From the article;

"Fees have gone up disproportionately relative to incomes,” said Susan Hamlyn, director of the Good Schools Guide.

“A GP with three children, even on a GP’s salary, is probably going to find it impossible to manage independent day school fees, whereas 20 years ago it might have been a bit of a squeeze but they would have done it.“

About 1 in 4 receives support, but even then a large majority of these will be paying the majority of the fee. Which means that 3/4 do not recieve support, indicating that the vast majority are from affluent back grounds.

@dapplegrey I agree, and sometimes people have confidence in one area or another, not in all areas. I also think that for many private school children the confidence is a veneer in any case - they have learned how to engage with others in a certain way and it appears to be confidence. True confidence and high selfesteem are an entirely different matter and more to do with emotional intelligence.

and sometimes people have confidence in one area or another,

That is very true. We know a highly regarded concert pianist. On stage he's completely confident and on top of the situation.

In social life he's shy and not very confident. He's also very modest - sometimes uncofident people boast to cover up insecurities - but this pianist never mentions the international prizes that he's won or the sold out concerts and standing ovations in concert halls all over the world.
He had a specialist musical education from an early age so neither state nor private.

@topcat1980, thank you for linking - the ft article didn't link but I read the 2015 BBC article re average school fee - a report based on a survey 250 parents who privately educate their children? Or was the survey was only relating to part of the subject matter? London school fees are much, much higher than those outside London. And some bursaries and scholarships will be 100 percent, it is a matter of looking around. And many won't be looking at 14 years in private.

But in any event, the average figure quoted is 280K or so for day places over 14 years which does not compare to property prices in many parts of the UK. The report does not indicate that the children going to private schools come from any particular background and does not suggest that people on this thread saying that they are scrimping and not going on holidays is a pile of poo either.

Rather than riding roughshod over many posters contributions about confidence and calling them bunkum I think it is worth you reading the full thread and contributing in a slightly more thoughtful way.

www.theguardian.com/education/2018/apr/27/average-private-school-fees-rise-above-17000-a-year-for-first-time

www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/private-school-fees-rise-average-year-inflation-isc-census-parents-term-costs-a8325001.html

How about that then, the average is now 17000 with data collected from the 1, 300 members of the Independent Schools Council.

So yes its actually MORE expensive, than I stated, London fees were higher in the article you read at 15,500 a year.

Even with some help, this is by far and away out of reach of most families where average income is £26,000.

Its easy to identify using income where the children going to private school are coming from, 1/4 get a bursary, average bursary is less than half of the average fee. The VAST majority of students come from very affluent families, oh and comparing house prices? The vast majority of families with children at private school live in places with high house prices.

This myth that perpetuates on MN that the majority of public school parents are on very ordinary incomes but achieve fees by scrimping and saving or by getting a "full scholarship" etc is just that a myth. The vast majority of parents with children at a private schools are affluent, live in affluent areas with high house prices (relative to their local area of course).

Their children are confident because they have grown up with the trappings that money can buy and the privileges of affluence. It isn't really all down to the schools at all.

I don't think they always do. I went to a private school and had no confidence whatsoever until I got into my late twenties/early thirties. Same with my then best friend. However, I don't think this was because of private school, I think it would have been like that no matter what the school. I think it depends on the individual and family experiences rather than the school they went to.

I hate the stereotyping on these private school threads. My ds goes to private school. We are not rich and we are not entitled, neither is my ds.

With his school I don't think it's to do with money or privilege. many of the parents are very confident and have a can do attitude. The school has time and attention to offer to individual pupils as the classes are smaller. My ds is only in reception but I have noticed the whole ethos of the school is positive mental attitude, support and encouragement. Pupils are praised for their effort not just their achievements.

I hate the fact that people talk about stereotyping.

Oh and "we are not rich", yet probably better off than average. Again "rich" is subjective, and it is different to affluent.

"The whole ethos of the school is positive mental attitude, support and encouragement. Pupils are praised for their effort not just their achievements."

Again listing things that happen in every school.

@topcat1980 but if you bothered to read the thread you would see that no one has said school parents are on very ordinary incomes but achieve fees by scrimping and saving or by getting a "full scholarship" What has been said is that what it comes down to for many people is their firm belief that their dc will get a better chance at a decent education in a private school, and no this isn't dissing all state schools - so you get parents soul searching, bankrupting themselves or going without things like holidays and nice clothes to pay for an education in a private school. They may not be on the average 26K, but if they are on, say 40K they may well be able to afford a private school are not exactly going to be dripping money and the children will not be getting any confidence from that level of "wealth". And what people have said is that nowadays in many areas and for many people you either pay for education by paying a school or you pay to live in a posh area where there is a decent state school. And finally that there are huge differences between private and state schools, and some of the differences will engender confidence, but that true confidence akin to high self esteem will not come from the school and that the mannerisms learned at the private school may be mistaken for confidence. None of this is bunkum.

And bertrand wasn't saying it is all to do with wealth, she was arguing for quite some time that the children all come from the same socio economic group, which is a different point entirely. And not correct.

So yes, I do think your contributions today have been unhelpful and derailed the thread.

The ISC has some interesting figures in their annual report.

It says of 529164 students at ISC schools, 5863 paid no fee at all. So about 1% of the sector is there for free.

it says 1/3 receive some sort of bursary/scholarship, but 50% of that 1/3 are still paying half or more of the fees.

@grasspigeons I think that sounds perfectly realistic, but at the same time, a family on an income of 40K could afford a private school if they go without other luxuries I am not sure 40K is exactly "wealthy" (referring to @topcat1980's point about people talking bunkum...)

There are not really huge differences between private and state schools, the selectivity of the top private schools is the same ( and gets the same outcomes) of that of the top state.

The bunkum comes when people start saying "oh the school does this" and that is what leads it" .

It also appears that so many people live where the schools are terrible, yet OFSTED say 79% of secondary schools in the UK are judged good or outstanding. The Sutton Trust would then tell you that a student in a grammar school, will have no difference in outcomes to a student in a good or outstanding comprehensive.

There may be some households who are on £40k disposable income who are scrimping and saving to send their kids private, but these are in the minority! Just paying the average fee of £17,000 leaves your average family with £23,000 left - to cover food, bills, council tax and mortgage.

So yes the average family with that will be in the minority of people sending their children to private school.

@nevermindthebongos

It puts you in the top 40% of earners. So better off than most.

@TopCat1980

"The whole ethos of the school is positive mental attitude, support and encouragement. Pupils are praised for their effort not just their achievements."
Again listing things that happen in every school.

I don't doubt that most teachers, whatever type their school, have this as an ambition, but many are hampered in the effective delivery of it by class sizes, contact time per pupil and financial and other resources. Also by the teen years, peer group takes over from parents and teachers as possibly the most important influence and if the predominant peer group attitude is not supportive of academic/sporting/musical/other success then it's a lost cause.

The differences between the prep school I have looked at recently in a large town and the local state primaries in terms of grounds and facilities (for music, sport, labs, art, just everything...) are huge. No comparison. And the local state primaries are really good schools - just nowhere near the opportunities in terms of specialist teaching or facilities. The fees are not huge, and there are bursaries. In terms of numbers of pupils who come from families who are scrimping, neither you or I know this one way or the other, but certainly at the private school I went to, most people came from moderate incomes, and scrimped, not many dripped wealth.

@topcat1980

It puts you in the top 40% of earners. So better off than most

of course, but not exactly dripping wealth - certainly not enough to engender confidence simply because of how much money you have and where you live and what you can afford which I think you were saying?

TopCat1980
The bunkum comes when people start saying "oh the school does this" and that is what leads it"

No - the bunkum is you putting your fingers in your ears, going LaLaLa and refusing to accept any valid alternative points of view...

To take the music example I mentioned earlier. Why would you NOT expect a student who has had opportunities to perform 20 or 30 times a year to be more confident at performing than one who has had 2-3 opportunities?

Duh...

And yes it IS the school that provides it...

"Why would you NOT expect a student who has had opportunities to perform 20 or 30 times a year to be more confident at performing than one who has had 2-3 opportunities?"

I seriously doubt that they are offered the opportunity to perform 20-30 times a year. That would be almost once a week, unless of course you count performance as engaging in presentations in class, debates and discussions etc. In which case most schools do provide it.

The bunkum is linking this to the "confidence" that private school students have and linking the two.

They aren't linked, its the affluence and privilege they are used to which causes it. Duh...

"But not exactly dripping wealth - certainly not enough to engender confidence simply because of how much money you have and where you live and what you can afford which I think you were saying?"

But as I pointed out familes with 40k disposable income will not be the majority in private schools, some of which offer bursaries to families who are in the top 5 % of earners ( the Whitgift Foundation offers them up to 93k household income).

Only about the top 2% of the United Kingdom's population are remotely wealthy . Also less than 0.5% of the UKs could every be called 'rich' or even approaching that !

Whether 90% of the population or so can/cannot afford school fees, does not make the 5% that do Wealthy .
I know the average UK 'family' Duo income is about £31,000/ despite (£27,000) being the Average salary. That is because a huge number of people are paid quite poorly within the United Kingdom.

However, having said that despite not being statistically 'average' families (duo) 'earning' up to £65-75K are really normal .. If these people choose to pay school fees , they are quite rightly allowed to 'declare' that they skimp and save to do so !

"Why would you NOT expect a student who has had opportunities to perform 20 or 30 times a year to be more confident at performing than one who has had 2-3 opportunities?"

At music? If you were performing 20-30 times a year it would make a difference, but that's a very specific example, not indicative of the average private school.

The ONS data has it that 5.7 million people have disposable household income over £1,000 a week and that the top 10% of families had £1,856 for a couple with two children aged under 14.

As only 7% of children are privately educated you can make what you will from these figures.