to ask how do private schools produce such "confident" kids / adults and how I can do it at home?

[dragontwo]

Ok, I have my reservations about private schools, but I recognise that often they produce kids / adults with high self confidence and self assurance.

I want to know how they do this, how they drill this confidence into them, and how I can replicate any beneficial aspects of this at home into my own kid (state schooled)?

What do they say / do / teach that encourages them to be so confident and expect success?

I know there are down sides to everything but I'm just thinking about good ideas I can help my kid. NB I'm no tiger mother and do my best to encourage my kid as it is already but just looking for ideas and general thoughts on how it's done!!

Just curious!

Sometimes-and I stress sometimes- I think people are impressed by the stuff that is going on in their children’s private school that is very different to what happened in their own school days, and conclude that it is the private school that is different, not education.

Oh totally agreed Bertrand.

I agree with Irma too.

Of course there are some fantastic state schools which offer the same or better facilities and opportunities than many independent schools. I suspect that most of the children of MNers tend go to very good state schools - after all they clearly have involved, interested parents who are posting on a parenting forum for information and advice. It's a kind of initial filter - they have likely already made good decisions/moves for their children's education.
I have good local friends who are honest and open about their experiences in our local 'Outstanding' comprehensive.

topcat I really object though to the idea that state schools don't encourage children to do their best

I don't see people saying that though? However it's clear that some state schools have a predominant peer culture of 'it's uncool to be smart' which means that the brighter kids may keep their heads down and never reach their potential. Also state schools are under tremendous resource pressure and similar don't/can't always offer the range of opportunities that independent can.

Wow, the answers such as 'money' and 'entitlement' shocked me!

I'm not rich or entitled. I went to a terrible state school.
My mum remarried and my step father is wealthy and he kindly paid for my children to go to a private school.
I can say that hand on heart the children my girls are friendly with are not filthy rich or entitled, they are just normal kids with 1 or both parents that can afford school fees.

The reason I have seen that the children are so confident is the huge opportunities given to them which includes :
ballet being on the curriculum from day 1, once a week, as is swimming. Children then have open ballet and swimming days so parents can view.
Children also have gym and dance clubs, music clubs, LAMDA etc etc. With all this they have to perform at least once a term in front of all parents and their peers
debate clubs
philosophy is on the curriculum and starts in primary school along with PSHE
there is a huge variety of clubs on every lunch time
As well as doing sport every day their are also sport squads after school so each girl can try for sports outside the curriculum
They have open days where they have to show other parents round
Older girls give speeches, loads and loads of opportunities for that.
They have ECO prefects, monitors, captain of x and y etc for everything
Hot dinners are compulsory in first few years and eat with staff etc
Older kids interact with younger kids, have buddy systems, help them with reading
There is always something happening, spelling bees, a music evening, sports awards, a swimming gala, a club that every child gets to shine in something.
The way they are treated by the teachers .
The list goes on.

Bertrand and Topcat this thread has been useful to people wanting to discuss confidence and to people who for example were looking for schools which are good with dyslexic children, and I think that both of your contributions are really, really unhelpful, and usually inaccurate.

In relation to what you have mocking said about schools in non dire areas, I take it that you come from areas where there are excellent state schools, but where I come from in London there is not one single local state comprehensive which doesn't have a serious gang and knife problem, and yet property prices are sky high. You are both wrong about average fees of a private school especially when you take bursaries into account.

Bertrand in relation to public speaking, I am one of those people you referred to who would rather eat wasps than do public speaking, but because I had to do it at school ad I was given training to do it I have had no problem with doing it as part of my profession - which is law - eg being asked by clients to talk at seminars addressing 100s of people about my area of expertise, giving regular training talks. I am required to do these things as part of my job, and so painful as it is it is good to know that I know that I will be able to get through it because of the training. Does that make sense now?

“However it's clear that some state schools have a predominant peer culture of 'it's uncool to be smart' which means that the brighter kids may keep their heads down and never reach their potential.“

I’m not saying that’s not true- although it isn’t in my experience- but I wonder what makes you so sure that it is “clear”?

And of course state schools in general can’t begin to offer the “stuff” that private schools can. How could they possibly on the money they get?

Why do the answers such as money and entitlement shock you?

The vast majority of children at private schools will be from backgrounds where their parents have money and this brings with it a level of entitlement ( Except of course for on MN where everyone scrimps and saves or gets GPs to pay for it).

Even fewer children at private schools live in an area where the choice was the private, or a local failing school. The overwhelming majority of children at private school live in middle class areas with good schools.

I don't know of many schools that don't offer the stuff on your list, like I said it doesn't make that much of a difference.

"It's clear that some state schools have a predominant peer culture of 'it's uncool to be smart'"

And not every private school is a hot house of extremely bright children who think its cool to be clever, there are plenty of schools where Tim nice but dims go to play rugger or do other sports or ones where the results are fiddled so that the less bright ones don't appear on the headline results, a certain girls school up north springs to mind.

No one is denying the fact that they get good results, but that the "confidence" is not a by product of private schooling, but of other things.

As I said, my own very privileged state educated children have plenty of confidence-why wouldn't they be?

The ones I work with are incredibly confident because their parents bought them the 'right' to think they know best, and are the best. They're arrogant, self confident and honestly seem to think they are right most of the time. Also - they're REALLY loud, particularly the blokes and love to leap up a team dinners and propose toasts. They all did a lot of drama and debating etc. at their posh school. It's amazing how far a posh-ish accent and confident bearing can get you. I wouldn't say that they're the most self aware of my colleagues either. Personally I don't want my kids to have the kind of 'self confidence' that means you shout all over the top of other people.

Bertrand – OK, here’s a personal example. My DS1 plays an instrument. Has a friend, A, who plays the same instrument. They were probably similarly skilled. They had the same peripatetic teacher who visits local schools/ teaches at home. From Year 3 they went to different schools - A to the local Outstanding-rated comprehensive and DS to the nearby independent.
A is keen, but has had only limited opportunities to play at school - once a year as part of school concert and a couple of times in school assembly, after which he was teased by classmates for being a musical 'geek' (according to his mum who is a good friend of mine) so he refused to do it again.
From Year 7 he had to start going to the teacher's house for lessons after school as there weren't enough students wanting to play at his senior school. The teacher organises a concert in a local church at the end of each school year which about 20 parents attend.

DS however joined a school where two-thirds of the students play an instrument in Year 7. Musicians were accepted and respected alongside sportsmen, academics, actors etc for their skills.
DS played in 6 different instrumental groups. Every week there was an informal concert which students could play at if they had grade pieces or concert pieces prepared. A student would be playing in a church assembly every day of the week. They played at Open Mornings, at Parents' evenings, at fundraising events and the school offered musical groups for local sporting and charity events.
There was a big concert for all musicians at the end of every term. Some of these were in London venues such as the Barbican with massive audiences.
DS started leaving his instrument at school during the week, as he expected to be asked to play, often at short notice (and was happy to do so.)
It's hard to imagine that those different experiences wouldn't make a difference to a child's aspirations, confidence and ability?

Fast forward to end Year 12 and A has pretty much given up his instrument. DS meanwhile, while not going on to study music, has made his uni choices partly based on musical opportunities and has been encouraged by his school to try for a musical scholarship.

My point is simply different paths, different experiences, different level of privilege and opportunity (and I accept that's what it is.)

If you’re getting that in the state sector then well done and you can feel smug for not having to waste your money. However both my DSs are into the arts and we are constantly meeting parents who are frustrated by the lack of opportunities and peer group influence/ attitudes at their (state) schools. This isn’t even in the city either – we’re in a MC leafy suburb!

Why are are children confident? First two one word answers - MONEY / ENTITLEMENT.

Not my experience at all.

I have met a few girls who came from a state school in primary, joined at year 7 and in their own words in one case went from someone with a stammer and no confidence and a year later when I met her and was given a tour by her was so confident and very little evidence of a stammer. She said this was down to the opportunities given to her at the school through I think she said either LAMDA or music?

I work in a sector with a lot of privately educated people - men, women, boarding school just because, boarding school because of military dad, day schools - they're not the brightest bunch either a lot of them despite having gone to 'good' schools.

But Bertrand have we not already established that you have above average state schools near you?

I agree with NeverMindtheBongos

Bertrand and Topcat why exactly are you trying to derail this thread??
If you read the earlier posts you would see that nobody was making sweeping generalisations about state being crap and independent being far superior. Most people simply acknowledged confidence may be about parenting, attitudes and opportunities (which may or may not exist to different degrees in whichever school your child goes to, state or independent).

If you're so happy with your outcomes, then why not leave space for those who may not have the luxury of similar opportunities to debate their options?

"But Bertrand have we not already established that you have above average state schools near you?"

Well, if you get into the grammar school and like that sort of thing, yes. My ds didn't. His school would have given most mumsnetters canniptions. 37% FSM. 34% 4 and above in English and Maths....

“Bertrand and Topcat why exactly are you trying to derail this thread??”

Because they are not really happy with the outcomes and are jealous as hell.

We aren't derailing the thread.

Pointing out that many of the things discussed as being the "reason" why private schools turn out more confident people appear to be bunkum, whilst the people trotting them out ignore the elephant in the room is not derailing.

Odd, these accusations of jealousy. Almost as if people can't understand that others might have different points of view......

Aren’t a third of children at private schools on some form of bursary. I know some of the independents offer assistance for households up to 80k

@topcat1980 you are derailing - quite a few of us have already explained to bertrand that not everyone going to private schools have money and/or entitlement or come from privileged background and we have already been over the points you are now raising - the bunkum you refer to has already been explained patiently to her - you should have the courtesy to read all the previous posts a bit more carefully if you are going to try to point out the "elephant in the room".

Jealous as hell?

3 who are graduates of Russel Group unis/Oxbridge?

One off to another in Sept?

Not jealous at all.

Pointing out the realities of the situation. The majority of children at private school come from privilege and money, this is what brings the confidence.

"not everyone going to private schools have money and/or entitlement or come from privileged background"

But the vast majority are.

Aren’t a third of children at private schools on some form of bursary

The students on bursaries though would be those with parents with enough advantage to know and chase for them, and generally already having sufficient confidence and skills to present well at the interviews. Bursaries will generally select for confidence, rather than confidence being an outcome of the private schoool.

Everyone going to private school is priviliged (outside of specialist private schools where the funding is 100% government for serious reasons) that doesn't mean they're rich, it just means they carry more privilige than the average kid.

The average bursary is f £5,345 a year each, but the average school fee is £13,194.

So not even half.