to ask how do private schools produce such "confident" kids / adults and how I can do it at home?

[dragontwo]

Ok, I have my reservations about private schools, but I recognise that often they produce kids / adults with high self confidence and self assurance.

I want to know how they do this, how they drill this confidence into them, and how I can replicate any beneficial aspects of this at home into my own kid (state schooled)?

What do they say / do / teach that encourages them to be so confident and expect success?

I know there are down sides to everything but I'm just thinking about good ideas I can help my kid. NB I'm no tiger mother and do my best to encourage my kid as it is already but just looking for ideas and general thoughts on how it's done!!

Just curious!

At the top public schools, the kids have entered a competition to win a vastly oversubscribed place and won. Almost all the kids who sit the entrance exams have parents who can afford to send them there, but most will not end up with a place. So for the ones that do, it's not about privilege. It's about knowing that they succeeded where many others didn't. Outstanding teachers then build on that warm glow of success.

Small class sizes helps massively!! I teach 30 with one TA and so my kids have a ration of 1:15. My friend teaches music in a private school and one of the teachers there was moaning that she has 15 in her class and everyone else has 12! Add at least one TA and you have a ration of 1:6ish! You can give them much more individual praise, attention and confidence.

Megan, I agree.

Confidence or lack of confidence is often a thing achieved when comparing yourself to others. Sadly, if you know that you have already failed when others have succeeded, that others have access to support or faciltiies or expertise or whatever that you do t have access to, then confidence can be reduced. Those in Independnet schools know they are a small minority. They are often told to be aware of their privilege and how lucky they are.....it mig be intended to make them more humble in some respects, but is also has the effect of reminding them that they have access to all kinds of things others might not....that their success is more likely and less precarious, not just because of what they have, but precisely becaue others don't have it.

ive just been chatting to a child who has did a try out day at a local independent school today (and got a place).

I asked what it was like and the child said 'the work is harder, but you get more help'

maybe its as simple as that

'One thing we struggle with constantly is the unpleasant sense of entitlement that private school does engender. We hate it. Crops up everyday ......"when I learn to drive I can go and do what I want when I want" etc etc. Also the sense that they are always right....there's a lack of humility too often.'

I don't think that's private school kids only, Tinkobell, I'm sure the state school kids around my way assume that they will get driving lessons and a certain number assume they will get a car to drive also.

As for private schooling - one of our young relatives is privately educated (currently yr 3) and has gone from being very shy to the extent that she wouldn't speak to anyone outside the immediate family to being far more socially confident, happy to talk to adults she doesn't know well.
My DCs are fine socialising with their peers but I know they would struggle with adults they don't know well.

We learned not to fear having an unorthodox opinion about anything, because of the culture of respect, and that engenders the courage to think outside the box.
I really agree with this.
In my (actually very good) state school, as a bright girl i learned to stayed quiet and under the radar so as not to piss off the stroppy ones who could make my life shit. Not that i was scared, i just didn't want the hassle.

Many people are saying confident parents make confident children and whilst that may be true some of the time it isn’t a given.
Often children of parents with high expectations actually lack confidence and drive because everything is arranged for them.
Children in private schools get the support they need if they are failing and a higher percentage of the parents have an active interest in their child’s education. Also, it’s a broader curriculum with more emphasis on sport and winning. And the general expectation that public school kids will naturally be higher achievers.
In contrast, my state school education fully expected us kids to work in shops or hairdressers or suchlike I just can’t see the idea of working in a shop being presented to a child in a private school.

Many misconceptions on this thread across the private/state school paradigm !.

Personally educated @ Grammar, Modern Public School back to Grammar again. The Grammar School being the best, the Modern being the worst of them.

Children two DDs No 1 R.G Uni 2A* 1A @ A Level from her Grammar . DD2 'lazy' year 10 put still predicted mostly 8s GCSE. Brilliant ethos and produces more rounded girls than any private school !

DS 'SEN' at Independent school that took him from his 'outstanding' comprehensive despite apparently him having an IQ of less than 85 ! in 24 months has gone from predicted grade 2- 'praise god' to 6s in English/Maths @ GCSE . A brilliant Private school with no 'ego' , who saw potential in my son when the 'STATE' system didn't want to know.

There are good and bad in both systems, you can't generalise about schools nor their cohort based on 'snobbery'. That being by either inverse or by the traditional kind of.

@Freshfeelings I wish I was. I have two kids with ASD, one with an EHCP and both in an academically selective state school. I really know more than most about this.

PPs have said it all really:

• High expectations
• strong, confident role models (parents/teachers)
• lots of opportunities to 'perform' - public speaking, music, drama, concerts - it becomes second nature for them.
• peer support for doing what you're good at (academic/ sport/ drama/music) rather than mocking and bullying for 'standing out'

We know a few families whose children have gone to the OK/good local comp, but who have managed to 'mirror' the private school experience by putting their DC in for lots of extra-curricular e.g.

• dance lessons/ local dance group
• speech & drama/ youth theatre
• cricket club
• tennis club
• rugby club
• swimming club
• scouts/guides

In reality, a lots of these clubs were full of the independent school families anyway, so their DCs ended up with two sets of friends .
Some of them managed to get bursary places at the independent secondary school at 11+ or 13+.

Sort of overlooks the top private schools that have dedicated SEN provision

Undoubtedly there are some good private schools with specialist provision for SEN, and they sell themselves on that, although generally schools, such as prep schools, don't have the knowledge, understanding or desire to cater for SEN.

I also think having high expectations as a family is important too, and to let your DC know that their opinions matter. We've always been a family which sits around the dinner table talking about stuff in the news, or film reviews, or the ethics of something, or DH & I discussing aspects of our work with the DCs. My SILs daughter is allowed to sit at the table on her phone while the adults talk around her . My SIL says 'but I can't get her to engage' but I always think 'you haven't ever tried'!

There is definitely something about private schools which prepares kids for leadership. DS went on some taster courses in Year 12 and they all involved some sort of presentation at the end of the day/week etc. In each case he ended up doing it, and he's really not a pushy sort of person for this sort of thing. He said that most of the other course members were really shy and unconfident and in each case he felt he had to 'step up' to lead the discussions and then do the presentations. It was a real eye-opener for him, as in his school there would be very lively discussion and several people vying to do the presentation.

The small class sizes make a huge difference - I went to a prep school where we had about 15 in a class at the beginning, only 9 of us by year 6. So a lot of individual attention, teacher heard us read every day, a lot of speaking out loud, encouraging debate. Good manners. We moved round the school for lessons as soon as we’d entered the first year (age 7?) - so art in art room, music in music room, science in science room and were expected to get to the right place at the right time. Personal responsibility - we had some homework from very early on, not huge amounts but it was checked on and reinforced what had been done in class- you were expected to work independently for this. Exams from a young age - everyone was expected to take studying seriously. The exams weren’t stressful (and I was a very anxious child) it was just something you got used to doing every year. School play every year in which everyone had some kind of part.
Contrast with secondary school when I transferred to state sector (grammar school) - no one else had ever moved rooms for lessons before or had homework. I was used to shaking teachers by the hand and introducing myself - everyone else kept heads down and didn’t look adults in the eye. Academically I’d been somewhere in the middle at prep school - we had some real high fliers who went on to get public school scholarships and some who weren’t very academic at all but who were still encouraged to do a lot. Somehow I ended up at the top in grammar school - in most subjects we redid stuff in the first couple of years of secondary school that I’d already done at prep school.

Having seen friends’ kids go on to both sectors - in private school the teacher listens to the kids read every day. In state school it’s once, maybe twice a week if they’re lucky. There is a lot more attention and support if something’s wrong in the private school.

user DD is 7 and when looking to return to the UK I had two private schools ready and willing to take her on. She is very bright but has no social skills. The schools are both very selective and oversubscribed.

When I say bright I mean she is 7 and picked out Shakespeare in the library, saw it was a play and split the roles between her and her brother. DH and I question if she really is our child. Her ability is mind blowing. She has completed 1st and 2nd grade already and has been working on 3rd grade work since the end of April/beginning of May.

Smaller classes and more focus on debate and discussion and presenting .
However I don’t think it’s only private that can give this. My eldest four were home educated and they are very confident speakers also. I suspect this is the class size and opportunity for debate and the fact that they were expected to present an argument to me and I taught them in a largely socratic method so no spoon feeding and a lot of open ended questions with no right answers . They travelled half of the year for art and history and geography trips with me so are fairly well cultured and I notice that has given them confidence in varied situations .

I suppose it is privilege whether it’s from a private small class education , travelling and one on one tutoring or going to a state school and having cultured interested parents that give you attention and a drive for knowledge .

So I think the thing to give a child this confidence is to always talk and discuss things with them and encourage culture and learning.

I’m curious because my youngest is now in private and I’m wondering if he will be different from my four homeschooled ones in terms of confidence .......

I went to a comprehensive for a year then an independent.

I do think independent school girls (can’t speak for boys as none at my schools) are more confident because they’re not having to watch their back all the time.

Discipline is really good and any bullying or nastiness tends to be low level name calling. Parents at home are involved and interested almost all the time.

It’s a calmer more secure environment. At the comprehensive I was at there was punching, hitting, slapping, spitting, destroying belongings, setting hair alight, multiple 4th & 5th year pregnancies every year, brawling, fighting, weapons bought in.

I know that is quite extreme, it was London. However even on a low level that can undermine confidence. Being scared to be noticed or speak up in class because someone might make a snarky comment or throw something at you doesn’t make for someone outgoing. And it wouldn’t be tolerated at a girls independent. It would be quite mild and not really noticed at a lot of comps.

Plus less bullying over not having the right hair, shoes, bag because uniform is strictly enforced.

It was a big relief to me. And it made me more confident because I wasn’t scared.

I would however say that there is nothing wrong with not being super confident. My husband is waaaaaaay less confident than me and the kids and less articulate. He is very successful and happy so it doesn’t mean you need this confidence to have success and be happy :)

OP I think it’s great you care enoguh to question this and to try your best so I’m sure your kid will do well .

My son who is now 20 and works in IT had a really mixed secondary education, 1 year grammar, 2 years 'state boarding school' and 2 years comp in Oxford. I think it gave him a fantastic outlook, he is confident and astute but not cocky and gets on with all regardless if race, education level or social background. I think there is a big difference between natural down to Earth confidence and arrogance/cockiness--- see current government for details , I'm afraid many of the old Etonians come across as arrogant with little to be arrogant about

yetmorecrap - your son's experiences at those different schools must have been really interesting and am sure would have been great preparation for working life after school where, in most sectors, the workforce is not homogeneous in terms of 'type' of secondary education.

Confidence comes from knowing your place in the world is secure. That can come from having a high level of self belief or from knowing there is a very good support network around you and that support network has the expertise to help you be a success at the next stage and beyond and that if things go wrong, you will be rescued and a new route planned for you.

Some parents can provide all of that. Some can provide some of it. Some can provide very little of it. Where parents can't provide all of it, independent schools are very good in filling the gaps and so ensuring a child's place in the world is more secure and there is access to more opportunity and expertise to allow them to become successful at the next stage.

Lots of middle class parents in all school systems can give their children lots of love and access to extra curricular activities and opportunities. Some will also be able to provide opportunities for extra help with school work difficulties, or espertise about GCSE and Uni choices, or access to individuals who can provide work experience, or a circle of friends who have similar aspirations. Most apprentice cannot provide absolutely everything to ensure all opportunities are catered for....most decide that doesn't matter anyway.....but perhaps what some good independents do,is to provide some of the things that even dedicated parents might struggle to supply, or to supply on the scale and level which a decent sized indecent school with a history of preparing children for successful futures over possibly centuries, have done.
And a key part of it, for parents and children too, is knowing that they are getting something that most people aren't getting. That can build confidence, becaue often confidence is a comparative thing....that's perhaps the less attractive side of it, which people often call 'entitled' - and whilst much confidence needs to be inner confidence, to be really sustainable, the perhaps more superficial confidence which comes from knowing you have the back-up behind you which most people don't have, isn't as sustaining in the long term, it's often good enough to get people to the next stage, and as success occurs, conside de starts to naturally grow anyway.

So, if you passed an exam for your Prep at 8, you already feel a success. And if you play for the school team and pass Grade 1 on the piano and know some children don't do these things, or failed the exam you passed, or didn't even have an opportunity to take it, you can feel pretty good. And then when you hear in assembly every week about the successes and achievements of your peers and how the older ones went onto prestigious schools, you believe it's there for you too....it starts to seem normal and likely, rather than remote and unlikely. And when you then spend time with other children from successful families and see their lives and confidence and expectations.....it all starts to feel very normal for 'people like us' even if you are only 8 or 9 and can't even articulate it. And if a one off failure occurs, there are plenty of people to pick you up and tutor you, or find a new activity to be successful in, or a new route and so failure seems like a short term blip rather than a lasting thing to be afraid of. And then you go onto your next school, which again, you probably had to take an exam for and even if pretty much everyone gets in, as is the case in lots of independent schools, there's still a sense of success and knowing you are having something others don't........and schools have to justify their fees and remind parents and children of the extras they are getting, so even if they aren't actually that significant, belief in their existence and the fact others aren't getting these extras, perhaps breeds confidence, even if it's not particularly warranted...but that doesn't matter, becaue much of confidence is the belief itself rather than if there is substance to it underneath. And as you grow, you see there are always those 'like you' around to help you and protect you and carry you forward....so why would you lose confidence, because 'people like us' can usually work things out, so there no need to fear and in the end 'people like us' ar in charge and look out for our own.

Lots of public vs private stuff here, but every school is different. I've taught in both and absolutely believe it's down to the leadership and practices of the school and this varies massively by area and by age grouping. There are incredible state schools that really push and provide everything for their children, but also a lot that are challenged for resources and simply don't have there same environment. There are a lot of amazing private schools, but not each one is right for my DC, or for anyone else's either. There is chat upthread about SEN provision, a lot of the 'top' academic schools won't work with SEN, but there are other specialist private schools who have amazing facilities and environments to support SEN. Every school is different.

I'm on mat leave at the minute from my role in a private school, and it's a workplace I love. There is so much opportunity for the children, but they're also reminded how privileged they are. This serves both as a motivator for them to work hard, so as to be deserving of those opportunities, and also for them to contribute to the school in other ways. The kids raise a lot of money each year for charity through school schemes, a lot goes to educational foundations in less
wealthy parts of the world and the school also provides governance and support to a local state secondary. There is some entitlement from child to child, but the attitude of the school itself is geared much more towards a sense of the responsibility that privilege brings.

Personally, I also have to say that as a teacher my current school makes me feel 100 times more valued than 2 previous state schools. I'm given trust, freedom And the chance to make changes or implement new ideas. I'm given proper time off and proper thanks whenever I go above and beyond (which is every day for state school teachers, with silent expectation not so much as a thank you), less grief from parents... I definitely think we could look at how teachers are treated if we want to look at disparities between state and private.

I've been looking around private schools recently for my kids. Things I've noticed, trust - doors aren't locked, they know codes, they are trusted to move around safely etc as opposed to crowd control in bigger schools.
The students are constantly asked and challenged - if they ask a question then the teacher questions them back to find the answer or helps them find it out rather than it being easier to give them the answer.

I do think independent school girls (can’t speak for boys as none at my schools) are more confident because they’re not having to watch their back all the time.

I agree. In fact, my position on single-sex education is completely untenable: I think it's great for girls, but that co-ed is best for boys.

The school I went was a Girls Day School Trust school, I think there are around 20-odd across the country. An old boss of mine once told me he that could tell a "GDST girl" within 15 minutes of speaking to her because they are bright, confident and opinionated, and he was married to one. He mentioned 2 women in other departments that he thought bore the stamp of a GDST school, and in both cases, he was right.

The sad thing is, I had no idea at the time that my school wasn't the norm for most people. All schools should be that good, and they should all be producing confident young adults with enquiring minds.

DS has attended four secondary schools, both private and comprehensive since age 13. The first, our choice was a superb school, but proved too challenging logistically, as we lived a long way distant. The second, our local comp, was convenient, he knew people locally, and he did GCSEs there for two years. He learned half of b*gger all, and only passed in the academic subjects thanks to what he had learned in years earlier. (This was at the time rated as an outstanding school.)

For sixth form, we and he chose a newly created school, which failed to attract pupils in its third year of existence and for enrollment/numbers reasons, ended up having to take everyone from the local PRUs. Those students trashed the facilities, caused the whole SLT to have breakdowns or take early retirement and the young enthusiastic teachers were systematically headhunted as HoD/HoY by more established schools.

We bailed out after nine teacher changes in six months and chose to pay for a private school sixth form. It wasn't the greatest school in all honesty, but the teachers taught (sometimes well, but not always) and there were expectations on the pupils to participate in everything that was available. It was noticeable that it was the paying day pupils, whose parents (and grandparents, whose financial contribution was often the factor making fee payments possible) were encouraging the students to join in what was on and available. Interestingly, according to my mole, the school has suddenly refocused on engaging local people because they have noted that the school's participation in prestige events declined significantly while the emphasis was on sports and overseas students.

My read on all this, for ordinary families (we are) is that independent and grammar schools are free to deliver a better, more rounded education because
there's nowhere to hide in smaller classes;
bad behaviour and indiscipline is stamped on hard and quickly; teachers help to find and celebrate every success;
families are supportive, but expect something in return;
education is valued, and achievement is applauded by students as well as parents and teachers;
everyone is expected to have a go at everything, even if you have three eyes and five legs, you'll make the third rugby/netball team every week against another school's third team, and sometimes you'll win. You may hate it, but you will turn out to play, even if it's raining.

The objective of independent, paid for education (and of course I know it's not an option for every family, although I think searching for the closest approximation of it should be available to every person in the country) is to instil confidence that the individual can succeed, to the best of their abilities, provided they are willing to put in the work.