To think Scotland has a better future than England

[hadenough]

The state of the UK today makes me utterly depressed. A Brexit voted for on the basis of lies, an anti-immigrant rhetoric, and a general attitude of unwelcome.

But yet, in Scotland, the message is very different - a focus on welcoming people to the country, an opposition to Brexit, and a real debate about the future.

It genuinely saddens me to be part of a wider country that appears intent on going back, but never forward.

Lumarie if you know your courts you'll know that the ICC in the Hague, is sod all to do with the EU, but embraces most of the wider international community.

I am not in a strop, but I really can't be doing with people who spout misinformation like it is the gospel. You may live in Paris, but I have lived for the past 13 years in and around Brussels as my dh works here, initially for HMG in military diplomatic posts, and now as a civilian. How you describe the EU is not how he and some of his colleagues see it, and they have either been seconded to it, or have to deal with it every day.

You sound misinformed about the Commission to me; have you been drinking the EU kool aid?

Strange how some people don't want to engage when they can't answer the questions posed.

I agree that Scotland has a better and more open feel to it somehow. However, Sturgeon is an absolute menace, and her vision of Scotland is one which shuts itself off from the rest of the UK, yet supposedly still welcomes immigration. Immigration from E Europe has changed Scottish cities significantly. There are many who complain about the lack of housing and jobs as a result, despite the fact that Edinburgh and Glasgow are very cosmopolitan. Also, I am afraid there is still a very strong anti English undercurrent in Scotland. Not everything is as it appears.

I still prefer Scotland by miles, and I have found that there is a very staid and conservative attitude a lot of the time in England which depresses me. I have lived all over the place in the UK.

Nyx, I'm sorry but that is rubbish. We were still a United Kingdom when the vote took place. Therefore we quite rightly took the vote as a United Kingdom. Consequently the result, quite rightly, applies to us as a United Kingdom. It didn't go the way some people wanted, which is unfortunate for them. But they don't get to claim it was unfair or shouldn't stand because of that.

Cherrytrees. Independence isn't 'shutting Scotland off' from England or about anti-English feeling. It's about self governance.

Scottish people choosing and getting their preferred politicians, being able to decide for herself what she wants to work towards and what kind of country she wants to be.

Scotland for example has not voted for the present government in Westminster but has it anyway.

Once self governing Scotland can be an ally, a friend, an equal partner to England, Wales and Ireland. That is what Nicola Sturgeon's vision is as I see it.

What is wrong with that? Why can't people see it is the normal way for a country to be?

Scotland isn't a region of England.

The population voted against independence.

They did, and it should be left to rest at that.

loopy does the past really matter? I'd have been on the side of the Scottish patriots every time in the bad old days, but that is the past. It's not sensible to do something that will hurt us all economically for the sake of a feeling that historical wrongs are being righted.

It's a lovely idea, but I'd rather maintain my standard of living and that of my kids than feeling like I'd appeased the soul of Braveheart, tempting and romantic as it is.

I think all of us have still, had a bucketful of indyref arguments as they're so horrible personally.

loopy - correct, but this is a country voting to remain, not a region of a country.

watermelon
That is the best argument for independence. Everytime Scotland votes as part of the UK it doesn't get what it wants. Tory governments and Brexit is part of that 'unfortunate' situation as you call it.

which would be slightly more powerful design if we didn't have a UK tory govt thanks to Scottish tories. There are brexiteers and tories in Scotland too. Ruth Davidson is a hugely appealing politician and it's not English people that voted for the party she leads.

No Design, some Scots don't get what they want. I am Scottish and voted against independence. So did the majority of Scots (in real life I only know of one YES voter, who actually told us to "fuck off back to England" during the Independence campaign if we didn't like it because we once lived there for a few years, and not by choice). I got the result I hoped for (for the first time I might add). If it had not gone "my" way I would have been unhappy, but accepted it. As I did every other time I voted. Those on the other side of the Independence (and Brexit) vote seem singularly unable to do so, finding all sorts of reasons why it's now "not valid" or "unfair" and should be repeated. Imagine if we all did that at every vote.

Cornish, you're saying we have a UK Tory government thanks to Scottish Tories? I think not!

of course we do Nyx, because of their revival in Scotland. It's clear that there is no majority appetite for indyref2 here.

I'd also ask indy supporters - look at brexit - passed on a wafer thin margin, hugely divisive, and very unclear outcome.

Is that what you want for Scotland - if you get indy through, it's not going to be a 2/3 to 1/3 victory, it'll be a wafer thin margin again, with very unclear ideas about what we're voting for, and much division on the implementation.

I fancy it even less post-Brexit. You can vote for an idea and what you get is very uncertain.

Glad to see that Mumsnet has decided there is going to be an indyref 2

As an English person living in Scotland I support independence, and there is no reason at all that Scotland couldn't be a successful small country.

but a win's a win, right?

if we're conjecturing wildly, there are perhaps reasons that Scotland may be alright in the end, a bit like the UK and Brexit. When in the end the Scottish growth miracle will occur though, well, who the hell knows?

The economic growth plans for independent Scotland are as dreamy as the revival of the UK economy once free of the 'shackles' of the EU.

“This is a country voting to remain, not a region of a country“.

It’s not a separate country though, when it comes to EU membership.

Well that simply emphasises the need for Scotland to be self governing. Being taken out of the EU or not is something Scotland should be able to choose for ourselves. It's a big issue for our economy and a large majority of our voters want to stay in.

Plus there's the issue of our democratically elected representatives being utterly and completely ignored on the issue. The Tories in Westminster didn't even make a pretence of working with the Scottish government to try and find a way that would work for both.

Cornish, why wouldn't an independent Scotland be successful in the medium term, or even in the short term? What would prevent it? The growth commissions report is to be discussed and debated but even the current conclusions, which are pretty conservative and careful, don't suggest any disasters. What the media are calling austerity, if you look at the report, is actually careful spending. The report: "calls for investment to grow Scotland’s economy to move towards the performance of other independent countries, by increasing participation, productivity and population. The measures proposed serve to reduce inequality and poverty. Over the past 10 years Scotland’s budget from Westminster has been cut by 8% in real terms. That is austerity. The Growth Commission propose to increase public spending in Scotland by 5% in real terms over 10 years. That is not austerity.

In fact, analysis has shown that if the growth commission spending recommendations had been implemented over the last ten years, the £2.6bn cuts to Scotland’s budget would’ve been reversed entirely."

Nothing 'dreamy' about that. Brexit, on the other hand...!

England is one of the most open, tolerant and welcoming places of the face of the Earth., in my opinion, much more than Scotland so In my opinion the whole premise of the thread is in fact, bollocks.

Right now I'd take the uncertainty of independence over brexit and the tories.

I agree that Scotland has more of an open outlook, and in my biased view (relations are Scottish) fantastic people! And they voted remain.

However I see big differences in the realities, my relations who have stayed in Scotland have far less work opportunities, and live in quite small minded communities that are not welcoming at all. We forget that southern England is one of the most open, outward, welcoming and diverse places there is. I’d rather stay in England. With the mess of Brexit it’s still a good place to be.