To think Scotland has a better future than England

[hadenough]

The state of the UK today makes me utterly depressed. A Brexit voted for on the basis of lies, an anti-immigrant rhetoric, and a general attitude of unwelcome.

But yet, in Scotland, the message is very different - a focus on welcoming people to the country, an opposition to Brexit, and a real debate about the future.

It genuinely saddens me to be part of a wider country that appears intent on going back, but never forward.

3) Gaelic signs, in an area where Gaelic is still spoken. Not so daft. It’s not in the lowlands or central belt I’m presuming?

I'm in Ayrshire, where Gaelic hasn't been spoken for several hundred years. There is Gaelic on road signs, signs at the railway stations, on Council vans, Police vehicles, on correspondence from the Council, and on my recycling bin!

I went to Largs last night and the sign on the way in to that Lowland town is in Gaelic only - not a word of English on it!

In the event of any independence vote Scotland would be the UK and the UK the Eu if you get my drift. The UK would hold all the cards what with Scotland's trade deficit.

Well Scotland would not be negotiating for more than we are due

A bit ironic, isn't it, in view of the Barnett Formula?

Leaving aside any other economic debates, Nyx, Brexit is happening - whether Scotland is independent or not it'll suffer if RUK goes into a downturn due to Brexit, and independence will in the short term increase economic costs due to uncertainty, whatever happens in the longer term.

Or are you seriously saying the SNP are going to present a clear negotiated plan for Screxit ahead of any new referendum?

I'm not going to debate the fundamentals of indy any further - i'm fed up with it and you don't care about the risk, you'll continue asserting your pro-indy line in the teeth of any evidence as this thread bears out.

plower it’s not a binary choice - you can’t choose to be free of Brexit economic consequences anymore than the Germans can. If a huge world economy goes into a downturn, Scotland suffers whether independent or not.

That’s how the global markets work.

you can’t choose to be free of Brexit economic consequences anymore than the Germans can

I'm pretty sure the Germans will be less impacted by Brexit than the British

It is a choice between uncertainty with Westminster in charge, or uncertainty with ScotGov in charge.

I know who I trust more.

It is a choice between uncertainty with Westminster in charge, or uncertainty with ScotGov in charge.

No it isn't. You're not accounting for the magnitude of the uncertainty and economic shock. The choice is between the shock of Brexit, or the shock of Brexit plus the (probably much larger) shock of independence.

FWIW, while I'm not exactly impressed with the Westminster handling of Brexit, I certainly don't trust the Scottish Government who have proven time and time they couldn't run a bath let alone a country, much less a country with such severe challenges. They are so inexperienced/incompetent (take your pick) that much of their legislation ends up either being totally unworkable or actually illegal. It doesn't inspire confidence.

Just look at the trams mess in Edinburgh as an example..

However much of a mess the trams in Edinburgh were in the planning and implementation, they are in practice a fantastic asset from the point of user experience.

hmmmm...... go check Scotland out and see if it's true and report. It's rains more, higher heart disease rates, diabetes etc.... UK is ok if you have cash, otherwise it's a grind.

I think some on here are living in cloud cookoo land...........

The idea that Scotland, unlike every other country in the world, needs oil to be independent is a joke. No-one serious ever said that. This is just a straw man argument from the people who oppose Scottish independence. As it happens, oil money is pretty magical. But more magical yet is how the English government and media managed to brainwash a well-educated country like Scotland into thinking it was uniquely deficient and poor AFTER it found out it had most of Europe's oil and gas! I mean, Scots know that oil=riches. Yet they made it a 'burden'. Pure magic.

i don't think that IS the argument rona, the argument is whether it's a good idea for Scotland to be independent whilst making the transition from being an oil dependent economy to something else. The risks of the financial sector relocating out of independent Scotland are significant too.

also saying Scotland is uniquely unqualified to be independent is also not what a lot of no voters ARE saying. The timing matters because if that is messed up, then the economic consequences could be very severe.

Why should we believe in a growth miracle when Scotland's economic growth after years of SNP rule has not been miraculous?

Why should we/our children/our grandchildren pay the transition costs to get 'independence' in a world where we're increasingly dependent on international companies and global markets anyway?

In my view nationalism should have run its course by now, alongside religious wars, whatever the historical rights and wrongs.

Scotland's economy is not oil dependent. All oil revenue gained in Scottish territory goes to either the Treasury in London or to international oil companies. We get some jobs, many of them involving transient workers, that's about it. When oil prices nose dived, our economy was actually boosted because the benefits for consumption were easily greater than the marginal benefits we gain from taking the stuff out of the sea. The Scottish economy will struggle harder adapting to the Internet and its effect on the retail sector than the alleged disappearance of oil and gas. You are right that this is an increasingly dependent and integrated world. That's one of the best arguments for independence, however. Powerless marginalized provinces with no economic leavers struggle in this world, small independent units are more flexible and better adapted to it. All independent countries do better, the evidence is universally in favour of independence in that regard--but that never figures in the mind of the No voter, whose theology dictates that whenever some uncertainty arises in life it will always be the case that Scotland needs England to manage it. Continuing with London's boot on our face is the worst thing we can do for our children and grandchildren. Ask Dubliners if they want to go back to the warm embrace of Empire? Ask Norwegians if they need Copenhagen's 'broad shoulders'. Ask Finns if they long for the return of the strong and reassuring hand of Moscow.

Well, how well do you think independent Scotland will be able to control economic leavers when trying to meet criteria for EU entry? What do you think the Irish thought about the recession that went along with them not being able to devalue their currency because they went into the euro?

How much do you think small, independent Greece has enjoyed its EU membership?

I'm not a brexiteer, but you can't have the independent of unions gives greater flexibility to compete globally argument whilst also claiming that Scotland will get the benefits from being in the EU and meeting all the EU economic criteria.

when oil prices nose-dived, the barnett formula offered huge protection to Scotland and Scottish public services.

We'll have to disagree about the best thing to do for our children and grandchildren, I fear.

@cornishstripes Here's an article that might interest you, where Paul Mason points out reasons why Europe's current independence movements are thoroughly 21st century solutions to 21st century problems:
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/23/we-need-to-understand-why-catalonia-lombardy-scotland-are-reposing-question-of-self-determination

we vastly disagree on which bit of the UK is the dysfunctional state :)

where do you think the massively successful city of Edinburgh is going to be with the disruption to the financial sector caused by independence.

@cornishstripes, are you arguing that Greece would be better off rejoining the Ottoman Empire? What does this have to do with Scotland? You've confused me there. Also, I'm a bit confused about where you've seen me say anything about the EU. Never mind, the Barnett formula is not insurance, but a moderate and, for London, very profitable bribe. No country independent country in the world would hand over trillions of dollars in oil and its sovereignty because of it may or may not get a little help managing global price fluctuations. Only in Scotland would that argument not be laughed out the room.

Ask Dubliners if they want to go back to the warm embrace of Empire? Ask Norwegians if they need Copenhagen's 'broad shoulders'. Ask Finns if they long for the return of the strong and reassuring hand of Moscow

Are these good examples? Norway is sitting on its goldmine from oil and gas so needs no one. No country wants to be controlled by Russia. And Ireland is in the EU and got huge investment in roads etc pre 2008. Not sure it's doing well now, thousands of young Irish people went to Australia for work. I don't know if they've returned or not. I'm not saying Scotland couldn't go it alone, I just don't see much evidence at the moment of that being any more successful than its position now.

@Fflamingo What evidence would you have? Every independent country does better and never wants to return to any old motherland Now, admittedly Thatcher et al. ripped through much of it, but Scotland had more oil than Norway. Scotland was one of the richest countries in Europe in the 1970s. It landed on a jackpot, and then proceeded to have one of Europe's worst growth rates for decades to come. Ireland didn't have that jackpot, but got richer because it did have independence. When you are someone else's distant resource-rich province, you DON'T ever benefit the way an independent country does PLUS you don't get to manage your economy in your own interest. No matter how poor you are, you are almost never better off losing power and handing over control to others.

So I take it you Also want independence from the EU.

@Fflamingo If Scotland is in the UK, I am definitely in favour of the UK being in the EU, for a variety of reasons. As far as iScotland is concerned, I am not sure, there are advantages and disadvantages, but most likely I would support membership if it were available on good terms. For the record, I don't see becoming a sovereign state and voluntary member of an international entity like the EU as in any way analogous to Scotland's status in the UK. I know the Tories have gotten a lot of popular traction by pointing out this 'hypocrisy', but in fact they themselves don't see it as analogous either and neither does anyone with any knowledge of how the UK and EU work. Within the UK, Scotland has no sovereign choice about EU membership. It remains in the EU if England wants to be in the EU, if leaves if England wants to leave the EU.

If we were independent we could choose whether to remain in the EU or not.

It is worth noting though that unlike in the UK, as part of the EU we would have a real say.

Greece and Ireland are examples of countries in the eurozone that may very well do better out of it. Who knows whether Greece would be doing better as part of the Ottoman empire - if they had transfers such as the barnett formula like Scotland does now they sure would.

The fact is now is EXACTLY when Scotland stands to benefit most from barnett because of the finite nature of oil. It seems to be to be jumping ship at the wrong point in terms of the oil revenues question.

independent scotland might be able to have a referendum (another one) vote to choose to stay in the EU - that'd be heartwarming eh, and a nice soundbite of the sort the nationalists specialize in, the economic and other terms under which they got entry and the timeline for entry are a completely different thing altogether.