To think Scotland has a better future than England

[hadenough]

The state of the UK today makes me utterly depressed. A Brexit voted for on the basis of lies, an anti-immigrant rhetoric, and a general attitude of unwelcome.

But yet, in Scotland, the message is very different - a focus on welcoming people to the country, an opposition to Brexit, and a real debate about the future.

It genuinely saddens me to be part of a wider country that appears intent on going back, but never forward.

Sorry for the typos, blame the shitty phone 📱

The EU also said post UK referendum that an application by Scotland would be fast tracked, The EU has also said, (as has NATO), that Scotland would have to apply to accede and go through the process without fast tracking, and would have to adhere to the Maastricht criteria on debt and deficit. I don't think Scotland would manage that currently. I also don't think that too many exceptions would be made in reality, whatever might be said publicly.

For the EU, it's more being part of a community with benefits rather than being ruled completely by a government that doesn't represent or listen to you. This nonsense about not having the ECJ or ECHR because it's the EU telling the UK what their laws are and that has to stop, these are war criminal and human rights courts, fairness and to prevent governments abusing people. It's not control, it's extra support and protection.

I think you'd better have a look at where the war crimes court actually is, and it isn't the ECJ or the ECHR. It is a completely different entity. The ECJ and the ECHR are precisely why I voted Leave. They are based on the Napoleonic code, which is completely at odds with Habeas Corpus and Common Law. The EU/Commission neither represents me nor listens to me. The whole place runs on the Acquis and this covers every aspect of existence. I haven't noticed the ECJ or the ECHR stopping the abuse of the people in the Greek Islands by Frontex, where people's properties are being seized to turn some of the Greek Islands into a migrant holding pen.

It is about control - absolutely. The Commission/EP etc aren't a set of fluffy bunnies - they are ruthless in the advancement of the Project. Selmayer is the one currently operating Juncker as his puppet. Barnier is after Juncker's job, and their end goal is a federalised Europe, without a nation state in sight. You may think that's a good idea; you may want to conveniently ignore the fact that the EU is engaged in empire building; ask yourself why the EU was at the G7; why Mogherini is allowed to swan into HQ NATO and speak, as the EU is NOT a NATO Nation; why Mogherini is on manoeuvres to get a seat at the UN security Council (she wants that of France).

As for 'protection', that's NATO, and the US, not the EU. The EU (and that includes the majority of those EU member states who are also NATO nations) pay the square root of f all to their own defence; preferring to rely on the generosity of Uncle Sam, who has got tired of paying and has been asking for the Europeans to up their game since the GW Bush administration.

whatever you do, don't go to Scotland and say the word Thatcher As long as you don't go to England and say Tony Blair or Gordon Brown. Lady T had been out of power since 1990 iirc; why hasn't the devolved government in Scotland righted all the wrongs she supposedly did. we are after all 28 years on...

For everyone south of the border experiencing the Brexit rows, similar rows have been mainstream up here since the run up to 'Indyref' and it's a fascinating but tiring fight.

But Scotland has more in common with the rest of the UK than with this neo-nationalist vision of a detached Euro-Scotland (Scotland's main route to 'independence'). Scotland's future is bound up inextricably with the rest of the UK like it or not though - separation (tallying up the historic debt, somehow restructuring all the trade exchanges, not to mention defence and so many other shared resources, as well as our families, joining the Euro et al) will be worse than Brexit.

Out of this turmoil, I hope to see a new Britain, including a devolution settlement for all the UK, for the regions of England, and Cornwall, as well as the other nations of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, I'd like to see an English parliament outside London and Westminster can be the boring federal UK administration and maybe we can renegotiate our relationships over time.

It is a huge injustice that Scotland is to be dragged out of Europe despite clearly wanting to remain.
It's just one example why Scotland would be better off independent from the UK, but still stay a member of the EU. Scots need to be able to determine their own future, based on their own distinctive Scottish values.
IndeRef was lost because of the scaremongering that went on in the media, much like the scaremongering and misinformation that went on before the Brexit vote. (a Brexit vote called for by a Tory government Scotland never voted for either).

I'm so sick of independence being mentioned by the Tories and Labour. It's all they talk about in Scotland and yet it's the SNP forcing the issue?!?

And all of you keyboard warriors - have you been to see your local MSP's to complain about anything you're not happy with.

Scotland will only survive if it stays in the UK. And if it leaves the EU.

@Rememory the only 'scaremongering' with Brexit was from the Remoaners.

@lindalee3 I don't mention 'scaremongering' but there was a bus with a big sign on it. That wasn't the Remoaners was it?

I doubt it to be honest.

Scotland has its own issues to contend with.

Estimates of an independent Scotland's finances are tied to oil prices which we know fluctuate. Scotland has the lowest life expectancy out of all countries in the UK despite people generally being healthier throughout their lives. Larger inequality in who gets admitted to university, despite the lack of fees.

If you're poor in Scotland, you're probably worse off than you'd be being poor in England. If you're not poor in Scotland, you'll do well - but then again, you'd probably do well in England too, because you're not poor.

@scaryteacher

I know my legal courts very well and politics thank you!

You’re wrong and in a strop clearly, I’m not engaging with this for both these reasons!

Goodness you’re an angry one

It is a huge injustice that Scotland is to be dragged out of Europe despite clearly wanting to remain

But we don't know if Scotland will want to stay in the EU without England, that's an unknown quantity.

IndeRef was lost because of the scaremongering that went on in the media
Not in my case I wanted to stay with England, Wales and NI.

It's a bit like people saying the only reason people voted to leave the EU is because more money was to go to the NHS. I voted because I thought the UK could do better on its own and because I looked online at what the Scottish MSPs were spending their time doing in Brussels, it was a joke. All that pay for attending a discussion meeting, then again for attending another discussion meeting later in the week, they didn't actually do anything, multiply that by a total of 700 MEPS and think what that is costing. Shocking.

Colbu24 - you despise an entire country you sound lovely.

I despise Scotland

Everyone?

I am struggling to understand how you can despise a whole country.
Is the geography? The people?

I despise Scotland and I wish you and everyone that complains about Brexit and England would just go
Wow - hatred for a whole nation!
Not sure too many people on here are complaining about England by the way.
Sick of the Scotts
Well, maybe you love the Scots then?

It is a huge injustice that Scotland is to be dragged out of Europe despite clearly wanting to remain

No, it's not. We voted on Brexit as a United Kingdom, not as separate components of that Kingdom. As a United Kingdom we voted to leave, therefore democratically that vote stands for the entire United Kingdom. No injustice anywhere in that.

Whywhywhy - estimates of an independent Scotland's future are no longer tied to oil prices (which can and do - in fact, are currently - go up as well as down). Oil is literally 'just a bonus' now and the plan is to finally start an oil fund as a cushion for the economy, which frankly should have been done many years ago.

Lol @ Colbu talking about anti-English feeling while baldly staying that they hate Scotland

Colbu grow up you little racist idiot.

“It is a huge injustice that Scotland is to be dragged out of Europe despite clearly wanting to remain”.

Almost half of voters throughout the UK wanted to remain, and plenty of specific geographical areas, eg London.

Scotland couldn’t meet the economic criteria to be an EU member.

For folks wondering why some Scots voted for independence but to remain in EU here's my take on it and we have to look at the reasoning behind why both unions happened in the first place .......

Scotland never really wanted to unite with England. Unfortunately it was left with no other option after the Darien project (a get rich quick campaign by some posh Scots with financial backing from the banks), bankrupted the country and England finally saw a way of subjugating the troublesome little country once and for all by baling it out through the Act of Union.

The six initial countries in the EU, joined in trading links to avoid any more wars with the belief that war was less likely if each country was working with each other and the economic impact of a war was too great. The countries however, remained independent of each other within that union.

So one union was about subjugation and the other was about war avoidance.

Watermelon, Scotland didn't get a choice. Scotland asked for the EU vote to be by country but were told. 'no'. So we voted - and by a large margin in Scotland to stay in. And then made contingency plans, tried to share them with Westminster, and were basically told "aye, very nice dear I'm sure, now run along and let the grown ups talk". We and asked to be part of negotiations (since we are part of the UK) but were told 'no'.

Meanwhile TM and her merry band have done nothing and worse than nothing - with Boris pissing people off left, right and centre while the whole party fights each other and wastes time.

None of that is fair to Scotland at all. But we're expected to sit down, shut up and eat our cereal.

But scotland was not the only area of the UK or section of the population where a majority wanted to remain.

And has more democratic representation than many other areas.