To think Scotland has a better future than England

[hadenough]

The state of the UK today makes me utterly depressed. A Brexit voted for on the basis of lies, an anti-immigrant rhetoric, and a general attitude of unwelcome.

But yet, in Scotland, the message is very different - a focus on welcoming people to the country, an opposition to Brexit, and a real debate about the future.

It genuinely saddens me to be part of a wider country that appears intent on going back, but never forward.

I would say exactly the same about you. You have made several assertions which proved to be demonstrably false. I did think that the 5 type 31s would be built on the Clyde, they may yet be built in Scotland though.

You’re the one that is proving themselves not very civil I’m afraid.

I don’t have time for this either. I’m away out to enjoy the sunshine.

This is all moot anyway. Sturgeon is rowing back from calling a referendum as she knows she will lose.

How can they be built after 2030 if they’re needed by 2023? It’s not possible (it was in the link) and if you’d done more than skim read you’d know that.

All you’ve done is attack, nothing about why your standpoint is valid, or why you feel the way you do. Just insults and sneering. How thoroughly unoriginal.

Enjoy the sunshine.

Nope, you’re just making stuff up again. Nicola is rowing back from nothing. Yet another statement you can’t back up. How unusual.

I think the actor Brian Cox, showed on Question Time recently the view the SNP take of England....

Sorry if you missed it Nyx but we had a referendum in 2014. You lost. There is no evidence that despite Brexit there is increased appetite for independence so there is no need for a repeat of what was a costly and unpleasant exercise last time

No, unionists are not averse to indyref2 because we are scared. We know you’d lose again. We just don’t want to go through months of nasty, divisive unpleasantness again for the same outcome

This. Worst, most divisive thing to happen to Scotland.

There are other shipyards in Scotland you know! Just because the Clyde doesn’t have capacity doesn’t mean they can’t be built in Scotland. Rosyth for example.

Point out these insults please.

I have a reasonable knowledge of A level and SQA music. A level music is much more difficult. Higher standard of performing required, coursework for A level is done in exam conditions over a longer period of time. Written papers are longer and require more in depth knowledge.

Come to think of it, my chinese friends in scotland will all tell you that AS level Mandarin is much more difficult than higher mandarin.

Nyx, the UK has been a very effective safety net, yes. It shows clearly the benefits of being in one of the largest economies in the world, even, or perhaps especially, in the tough times. But it’s way more than that. This isn’t a business arrangement like the EU; we have been one country for centuries. The entirety of living memory several times over. The people of the UK are our families, friends and neighbours, and are exactly like us precisely because we have been one nation for so long. To separate is to fundamentally alter the identity of the many, or even the majority, of Scots who see themselves as Scottish AND British, and so there needs to be a damned good reason to take that plunge. So far, I haven’t heard one.

And saying we have nothing to offer
@Soddingunicorns I’m not saying that I’m saying what are these resources and industries which are goi g to make going independent a great success, that somehow are not available to us now.
Round here the handful of remaining industries are closing or cutting staff.

Few points.

You can't really compare A-levels and Highers as they're taken at different ages.

Higher at Grade A = 33 UCAS points
A level at Grade A = 48 UCAS points
Scottish Advanced Higher = 56 UCAS points.

So an A-level sits in difficulty between the exams that Scottish kids do at approx 17 or 18 years old. Some Unis make unconditional Uni offers based on Higher results, others will make conditional offers on Advanced Higher. But still, trying to compare the two systems is like comparing apples and oranges as they are totally different and children are different ages when they enter and leave the school system.

There is building going on at BAE systems on the Clyde, no idea of what but some sort of military ships for the UK navy. If the separatists think that the UK government would happily outsource the building of their warships to a foreign country they are delusional. An independent Scotland would see that yard close and probably the Rosyth too, unless Nicola's magic money tree is going to pay for several aircraft carriers as well as everything else.

Separatists have trouble with their basic maths. They think 45% is a majority. They cannot accept that they lost, leaving in their wake a Scotland which is divided more than ever. Even the mere hint of a second Independence Referendum last year saw the SNP lose something like 21 seats in the general election. There is NOT the appetite to do it all over again. They also said it was "once in a generation" but have conveniently forgotten that bit.

The SNP and their minions need to get on with sorting out the state of the NHS, the Police, education, the roads rather than constantly banging on about IndyRef2. But they won't because they are a one trick pony and Nicola knows that it's what her faithful want to hear.

Makes me quite nauseous.

Youcannot, you say "The people of the UK are our families, friends and neighbours, and are exactly like us precisely because we have been one nation for so long."

Yes, people in England, Wales and NI are our friends, families and neighbours. They would continue to be so if we were independent. Britain is an island. We would still be British. We wouldn't be geographically moving anywhere. There wouldn't be big walls falling out of the sky and 'separating' us. Do you know, I have family and friends in a lot of places, some are even - shock - abroad . They are no less my family and friends because of that.

I would say we are not one country. We are countries in a union. When did Scotland vote to lose her own identity, to lose the ability to be called a country? To be subsumed unto the United Kingdom and become simply a region? We didn't.

Scotland is as much a bustling hub of industry as anywhere else in the UK (outside London). Less than it once was but that can also be said for other UK areas as there is much less heavy industry.

@Nyx. I also have friends and family from around the globe. My point, as I suspect you know because I’ve made it before, was that my identity is very much British as well as Scottish. I have never felt that the Scottish part of that identity is subsumed, it is simply one aspect of who I am. However, were Scotland to split from the UK my Britishness would be lost, at least without becoming a dual national, and this would fundamentally alter my identity. It would be like my parents divorcing, as the UK would no longer be one family.

It's good to see a debate around this, and clearly it triggers strong views. I note reading through, however, that it isn't the 'nasty nats' who have resorted to name calling or insults, but people on the unionist side. Do we really we have to resort to calling Nicola Sturgeon a 'wee krankie'? Maybe the DC have hacked the laptop...

I don't agree that Scotland isn't more welcoming. It was made clear from day 1 after the EU referendum that the Scottish Government would do all it could to push for EU migrants to have their status confirmed and to be allowed to unconditionally stay in Scotland. In contrast, the Conservative government in Westminster used EU migrants to try and gain political leverage - it was a complete disgrace and embarrassment.

I also don't agree with any claim that there is an anti English sentiment in Scotland. England is a great country - and it has made a decision about its future - it wants to leave the EU. It's entitled to make that decision.

But so too did Scotland make a decision - a very different one. Scotland has a GDP equivalent to that of Portugal, but yet has half the population - of course it could be a successful independent country. We were told during the last referendum that voting to stay with the rest of the UK was the best way to secure our EU membership. It was a lie.

"But so too did Scotland make a decision - a very different one. Scotland has a GDP equivalent to that of Portugal, but yet has half the population - of course it could be a successful independent country. We were told during the last referendum that voting to stay with the rest of the UK was the best way to secure our EU membership. It was a lie."

This.

I grew up there, I left as a young adult to live in other countries because this is something I personally do, nothing more to it than that. I dislike NS, for intensely personal reasons, more than anyone can possible imagine. I expect and hope she will burn in hell for the harm she has caused that I know of. Really serious life and death first hand stuff. So I don't like her, to be clear.

However, even I believe Scotland has wonderful countries. Politicians come and go (god I'll be happy when she's gone!). The people and culture of a country are the heart of a place.

I agree with the person who said that Scotland is much more socialist. It has been for generations. Many places in the north of England, Newcastle for example, have a similar feel in terms of attitudes to others and not one being superior.

Free prescriptions I agree, wonderful and very important. No one chooses to be ill, those charges get out of control when there are multiple medications and ongoing repeat treatment. Means testing doesn't help people in the middle financially so to speak. People who on paper don't fit the criteria for poverty line, but day to day reality is that money for unexpected things or expensive things is impactful and hard to find.

The university fees situation was difficult, basically westminster was bringing in fees and hiking them up, holyrood went with something of course going to be popular, free education, but they have no jurisdiction over students educated in england. Westminster of course would not change their new policies in response to a new devolved government setting policy, otherwise in would have been a free for all on holyrood forcing or trying to force westminster into all sorts of messes.

I agree it is completely unfair and it concerned me as an academic that the diversity within Scottish universities (some of the best in the world) would be lost, plus Scottish students having to make financial decisions not to go to an English university. However the basis, free education, is a sound socialist value.

That awful independence referendum, it was the first time I had seen normal and scottish people divided and disagreeable between themselves. Neighbours, families, I did not like that at all. I saw police with guns at the polling booth in the town I are up in. I had practically never seen the police before. I voted "F-No", basis on EU membership, end of story.

Or so I thought! More fool me:) This time I would vote "Why the hell not? F-ed anyway, can't be worse"

I've been out of the country since then, so now only have what off course is a personal opinion from family members and friends, plus my utter confusion at the results in Scotland in the last general election. Things clearly have developed, not keeping up with local news myself means of course in the space of a few years I will lose close touch with the feeling and conversation. So I won't comment more as I don't think I'm fully informed and experienced, other than knowing that people are exhausting of the ridiculousness, many now would vote for independence both from EU possibility and for disappointment when independence say in UK promises were not kept. The media is also very pro EU.

The suggestion that people in Scotland dislike English people is
massively incorrect.

Firstly, many people brought up in Scotland have one Scottish and one English parent.

Many years ago there used to be jokes about the English football team, or jokes, but this has subsided massively as society in general has realised that jokes about identity, including many others, such as gay jokes, or referring to people or places by race, or women stereotypes, are in fact inappropriate, rude, can be hurtful and are no longer socially acceptable.

All good people, of any nationality, develop and learn as society develops. Kids pick up of the new norms and we better ourselves.

The football jokes or celebrating england losing has stopped by a massive amount and completely within my social circles (it was affectionate teasing, not malicious), after england fans so generously and genuinely supported the scottish team when they almost managed to qualify for something about ten years ago (when scotland randomly somehow beat France who were world cup holders at the time twice). After that, I heard people openly say how kind this was, particularly after the teasing (which really was also partly due to the fact that football is fun entertainment and when your own team never qualifies for anything, ever, it was a fun way to be involved). So there was a deliberate effort to never say even friendly jokey things again.

At the commonwealth games, held in Glasgow, a very Scottish patriotic feeling city, all the other competing countries came out during the opening ceremony in a procession with flags, like at the olympics. When the English team were announced and walked out with the St George flag, there was massive lengthy cheer, the biggest supportive celebration out of all the competing countries. It was really lovely to see and hear.

The disliking "the english" is a thing of the past. There are other things to dislike, including own government.

Also many polish people came to Scotland during and after WW2, plus many people from Pakistan and India are now third and fourth generation, so it had been a blended community for generations. It is the norm day to day to accept people as people, not "others". The national favourite dish in Scotland is Indian curry. Official studies!

As for the comments on my education, I and my many letters after my name from Ivy League and top european universities, born of my scottish high school education just have to laugh:)

If Scotland wishes to join the EU, it will have to join the euro, do the same accession procedures as Serbia, Albania etc, and it may find that it would be blocked by Spain (if Scotland votes for Independence), so the Catalans aren't encouraged, and by the Belgians, as there is still a Flemish separatist movement. Scotland would also have to comply with the Maastricht criteria on debt and budget deficit.

What I don't understand is why, if Scotland wants Independence, it is then willing to cede that to the EU? Being an EU member state means that there is no such thing as Independence

AS levels are done at the same stage as highers. A2s at the same stage as AHs. Absolutely they're comparable.

Scotland would have far more autonomy outside the UK and inside the EU than it does the other way round.

No they're not rogue as there's a six month mismatch between school intakes.

Dont be fooled into thinking Scotland is in a better position. The little poison Queen is waiting for her moment to call another referendum and further divide the country.

She and the SNP are hiding behind brexit despite the health service going to shit.

Nichola Sturgeon won't give up until she gets what she wants, so there will be another vote, and if that fails another, because that is her idea of democracy, subjecting the country to that trauma rather than gracefully accepting that she lost, and the majority of Scottish people do not want independence.

@scaryteacher

Yes that's absolutely true, any new state has to apply. I don't think Scotland would experience the application in quite the same way as the other states you mention, they have had and have other types of challenges that have prevented membership until now. Scotland is already complying (without being in the euro, although it would be reasonable for the EU to refuse an exception and say must join) with EU laws, human rights standards etc. Economy is a bit of a question mark because there are a variety of predictions on what would happen to the new state's economy, it's almost a would have to go there to find out situation. The EU also said post UK referendum that an application by Scotland would be fast tracked, so I think the EU itself would want Scotland in, including all the various leaders politically encouraging Spain to not get in the way by making clear the difference between an already established nation and a separatist movement by stressing they recognise the former as a candidate but not the latter. I think the response was to show what happens to countries (UK), who choose to leave for those who may have wanted to follow i.e. your own country self destructs.

For the question why would anyone want independence then give that independence back, it's not a comparison of like for like.

The first to leave the UK is a desire to step away from Westminster. Within Scotland there is a feeling, based on reality, that Westminster does not represent or care about representing Scotland, that the country is dismissed as just a pretty place to go on holiday for a weekend, that Scotland (and I think this is true for Northern Island and Wales to an extent too) are not respected as equals, forgotten about on national news, seen as stereotypes, looked down on etc. Once the BBC changed the national weather map to tilt it like an angle on a globe so that it seemed more modern. Scotland shrunk to practically invisible and northern Ireland practically disappeared. It lasted two days before they realised they had messed up, but only because so many people asked if they were being serious! That represents the way other countries feel the south looks at them. There are also prejudices within the more arrogant london crowd, which are insulting. Life there really just is removed. Busy and full, but removed.

The people are different too. Remember when a couple of terrorists drove a car full of explosives into the front of Glasgow airport? In other countries every bomb scare or occasional suspicious nothing was a discussion of stoking up on canned goods as the world was going to end. Meanwhile in Scotland, someone drove a range rover into an airport, it exploded and was still exploding, on fire, two terrorists fell out on fire and trying to attack people, instead of running which would be perfectly normal, a whole load of Scottish people ran towards the guys and managed to get into a fist fight with a terrorist on fire because "you can't just be doing that". Then everyone laughed hysterically about it, especially the baggage handler, and said whatever, no freaking out here, where do I check in tomorrow. It's a different people is my point:)

So the idea of leaving the UK got a yes vote from many (and I voted no as I said for EU reasons) I think because people feel they are an afterthought, not properly represented or considered by westminster government, not well treated in the past (whatever you do, don't go to Scotland and say the worth Thatcher), too far removed politically, socially,culturally and so on, plus there is an identity for many people. It is true that Westminster is ignoring Scotland on a significant issue at the moment, large majority to stay in the EU was the vote in Scotland, westminster gives not a jot.

For the EU, it's more being part of a community with benefits rather than being ruled completely by a government that doesn't represent or listen to you. This nonsense about not having the ECJ or ECHR because it's the EU telling the UK what their laws are and that has to stop, these are war criminal and human rights courts, fairness and to prevent governments abusing people. It's not control, it's extra support and protection.

Really it's a different thing.

I don't know if there will be another vote, or what on earth will happen for that matter, I know voter fatigue was getting to people, but as i said, now that circumstances have changed re the EU. I voted No absolutely not the first time, but now with what I've learned about other parts of the UK and Westminster following the EU referendum, plus the catastrophe that has ensued, I would want out of that this time.

LuMarie, your comments about terrorist attacks are insensitive and in very poor taste, particularly in light of the London and Manchester attacks.
OP, YABU Scotland does not have a brighter future than England.

My note was about the response of people in Scotland when there was an attack there.

It was an illustration of a general theme of national character, which is different in many ways clearly to many people in England.

There have been terrorist attacks in places other than those you mention, are those not important too? Paris, Brussels, Madrid if you want to stay with European ones. New York took a hit too if you remember. The spirit of the response to these represents people, in all sorts of positive ways in terrible situations. In NYC there was a strong "we are New York, we are great and we stand together", it reflects the character of NYC (yes I've lived there and yes they are amazing people in an amazing people). In Paris after there were shootings at people sitting outside cafes on the terraces, Parisians went out to terrace cafes and thousands of people took photos holding up signs saying we are parisienne and we are better than people who did this so will not stop being ourselves (yes I live there and yes, that's Paris) and posted them on social media. London does ceremony, the royals visit. Glasgow laughed in the face of evil and said we will not stop being who we are or allow you to bring us down.

All across the world there are terrorist attacks, most days in the middle East, they are always incredibly costly in terms of lives.

If mentioning terrorist attacks is poor taste in light of the fact that there have been recent ones near you that you remember therefore think are more important, or poor taste because there have been terrorist attacks recently, no one could ever discuss such events ever again.

Quite frankly discussing, developing expertise and studying attacks like this in detail, including the response of people in the various places, is absolutely necessary and significantly more important than how Scotland will get on. Scotland will be fine one way or another and the OP, as well as many other people here, have discussed many points of view without a fight, criticising another person or missing the point.

There is nothing insensitive about studying and developing expertise on terrorism. I even care enough and am sensitive enough to know the names of other countries and parts of the world where there are complex issues, serious issues with violence and people are attempting to survive in their own cultural, political and social environment.

I am sensitive enough to say that this is about Scotland and has been a warm and friendly chat and exchange of ideas, so I'm not going to engage with you further on a complex social and political global matter. I have office hours for that.

I would really sad to see Scotland leave the union if a second referendum was held. But I can identify with the feelings that Westminster hold Scotland hostage, for all the Scottish leave please also understand that Westminster is also held in contempt by a lot in England, many parts feel that a lot of funding and infrastructural benefits got to the south east in particular London. I know a lot of Yorkshire would love to be devolved. So it’s not just Scotland who feel they suffer at the hands of Westminster. Sorry to butt in.