To think a lot of left wing people are actually close minded?

[DeepFatFriar]

Close minded as in not receptive to other peoples views.

Disclaimer: i consider myself left wing.

But at the same time, I'm quite happy to have a talk with someone down the pub who might be anti immigration or anti abortion. As long as they've thought their point out properly, im open to debate and i dont feell offended by their views.
But it feels like a lot of the left wing people i come across just go into "racist twat! Fucking tory!" mode- like theyre incapable of seeing that situations are often a bit more complex than just this is right/thats wrong.

For example with Brexit, i voted remain and was gutted by the result - at the same time, i felt a bit irritated by fellow remainers "theyre all little englander tory twats" attitude to brexiters. Yeah, some of them are. Others just have a different POV, you know?

I was discussing this with my mum and she said back in her day (im assuming this means the 70s!) "conversation felt more nuanced".

It sometimes feels like a lot of left wing people just want to live in an echo chamber. I think you need to try and keep an open mind to different points of view. You clearly dont have to agree. But you can at least accept that people have different mindsets because they've had different experiences - it doesnt make them a worse person though.

Oh and the poorest don't disproportionately pay for tuition fees, as they aren't net tax contributors, its incorrect to say that.
.

Well the term echo chamber exists for this reason. There are many lefties and righties that only listen to other people/sources who share a viewpoint with them and are totally unwilling to listen to others. It’s ignorant and incredibly bigoted but there you go. I am like you, a lefty that also welcomes debate.

I also think the problem is the left wing git this sort of badge of honour of being the good party and the tories the nasty party.

So people now just are left wing usually - - brainwashed-- into it from birth like abandoned religion... And they think they have aligned themselves on the the correct side.

It's a thoughtless sheep like process... And actually the left has shat on the poor in recent years.. Blair and brown did no where near close child poverty gap until brown at the end of their tenure chucked tax credits at them.. They shat on NHS and hospitals... Maternity wards and midwives under labour were horrific... Etc etc etc.

There are now only a few people in the party who seems to have a grip on reality on the ground for ordinary working people and one of them is Frank field.
They have lost thier human voice...

Did anyone's remember that jokey never kiss a tory thing t shirt...

Well lots of jokey media stuff an then on here threads... Would you be upset if your child married a tory.

Funnily enough tory said would not mind at all if child married lefty etc but guess what... Rabid ott responses from lefty saying.. Disappointed, would feel like failed parents...

Well yes I do know a few. They do tend to be an awful lot quieter about it though (shy Tories) partly because of the type of vitriolic attacking from the left that the OP described.

That's just the people you know. I have Tory friends and family who are anything but quiet. Some are members of the Conservative party. Most are quite liberal but then so are the many friends and family who quite left-wing. You may mix with close minded non-liberal people but it has nothing to do with left or right so stop generalising.

And liberals (irony) have become the MOST INTOLERANT people on earth. If you don't agree with them, you are clearly someone totally reprehensible!

It isn't ironic. You just don't understand what a liberal is if you think they are intolerant.

Um, the point about Blair and Brown is erroneous, they didn't reach their target for child poverty, but it was greatly reduced. So say the IFS:

www.ifs.org.uk/publications/6738

"NHS and hospitals... Maternity wards and midwives under labour shock were horrific... Etc etc etc."

The NHS had lower waiting times and was in surplus, this is just an opinion.

The NHS had lower waiting times and was in surplus, this is just an opinion.

Yes, waiting times were very much reduced and the NHS was in a far better state than it is now. The general public didn't seem to notice when things were going well though.

Oh and I really like the fact that the "left wing" are labled the establishment here.

The right wing in the UK have been in Government for 27 of the last 40 years. Hold the majority in the House of Lords, their backers are the owners of the 4 largest Daily Newspapers and some of the largest media organisations in the country. They have Newspapers, TV shows, radio shows that espouse the opinions all the time, to which they claim they are silenced from espousing.

Making a powerful majority feel like a persecuted minority is a very right wing tactic.

Yes, waiting times were very much reduced and the NHS was in a far better state than it is now. The general public didn't seem to notice when things were going well though

As I said above, I had an absolutely shitty time dealing with the NHS in the 2007-2012 period - three out of those five years being under Labour. I'm happy to accept the assertion that the NHS was well funded in that time, that's what I also believed, and it made me wonder why a service so well funded was delivering "care" that was uncaring and inefficient. I read the book by an ex Coca Cola boss analysing the NHS's failings from the point of view of a business and I found the arguments compelling. No point whatsoever trying to raise it with my left wing friends though because as soon as they hear Coca Cola and NHS in the same breath they write it off as a manifesto for privatisation, where privatisation = selling off bits of the NHS to the highest bidder in order to screw the ordinary patient as much as possible. Usually it goes along with "do you want the UK to be like America? Did you know x percent of Americans don't have health insurance" etc etc no I don't want the UK to have the American system, I wouldn't mind at all though if they had the German system where there's mandatory country-wide, government guaranteed insurance and you can pick your own GP and self-refer for a whole host of things including ENT, gynae and asthma/allergies. Or the French system. Or the Swiss. But leftwingers are not interested, the NHS is sacrosanct.

topcat that’s a very convenient set of cut off dates you’ve chosen there. Another way of looking at it is that for 18 of the last 21 years at least one left wing party has been in power and we’ve had a weak Tory government for most of the rest.

The left have a huge majority in the Lords unless you’re going to count the Lib Dem’s and Bishops as right wing which few people would agree with you on.

Newspapers are an increasingly irrelevant source of news and the most popular source for news in the U.K. is the BBC which is unbiased/left leaning.

And you’re also leaving out that Labour absolutely transformed the civil service and public sector management over their tenure to stuff it with their people and they largely remain a Blairite nu-liberal body. The coalition was happy with that and the Tory government since has either needed the civil service on side for the Remain campaign or been far too weak to reform.

The civil service, public sector, Lords (and largely the BBC) are heavily slanted to the left.

"The civil service, public sector, Lords (and largely the BBC) are heavily slanted to the left."

That's an extraordinary statement. Can you back it up in any way?

As I said above, I had an absolutely shitty time dealing with the NHS in the 2007-2012 period - three out of those five years being under Labour. I'm happy to accept the assertion that the NHS was well funded in that time, that's what I also believed, and it made me wonder why a service so well funded was delivering "care" that was uncaring and inefficient.

From a quick scan of your very long post it seems that you are referring to how you were treated when having miscarriages. I appreciate that the care wasn't good (I had recurrent miscarriages myself) but I don't think that was necessarily to do with lack of funding. Probably more to do with attitudes towards miscarriage full stop. Anyway, you can't judge the entire NHS on your personal experience. I have been involved with the NHS professionally for around 30 and as I said waiting times etc were considerably lower when labour were in government than they are now.

Are you assuming that all Crossbenchera are left of centre? Bishops?

I know quite a few who feel their are morally superior becuase they are left wing yet I know far more who are Tory voters that actually do charity work who campaign on local issues who are not all just talk

Having chaired more community meetings than I care to remember, this very much chimes with my own experience. At the merest sniff of a "campaign" you could guarantee a public rant from some lefty rabble rouser, damning the evil tory cuts allegedly responsible for everything, blasting on about their extensive experience "on the ground" and generally telling everyone else what they should be doing

Come the time for any actual effort and they were sadly nowhere to be seen ... which is why I quickly learned that the quieter, more measured types were those to rely on when the chips were down

Personally I feel YABU op, I think this thread has proved there are closed minded people on both sides of the argument.

@Puzzledandpissedoff
Amazed at how you reached that conclusion from a "Leftie" having a rant.
Not really sure what any of these anecdotes are supposed to prove as they all involve mahoosive generalisations about not a lot.

I said waiting times etc were considerably lower when labour were in government than they are now.

Generally because they introduced ISTCs which where run by private companies for profit, something that if the current government had brought in would be considered heresy.

topcat1980

Ah I didn't say they speak for the working class, I said I found it ironic that people criticised the left wing ( which doesn't mean they have to be in entire agreement with Labour policy) for not helping the working classes and then voting for a party which does even worse.
as a working class black person I am neutral under both but the Tory’s have the edge for some reason the left are determined to keep people like me reliant on welfare instead of making bosses pay decent wages the left invented a new kind of welfare
Also more unskilled immigration as had a direct impact on me as a black person I never actually experienced much overt rascim until Eastern Europeans started arriving

Amazed at how you reached that conclusion from a "Leftie" having a rant

It's called long experience, Ray ... not just of one ranting leftie, but of too many who were much keener on blowing a gale and general grandstanding than on attempting anything practical

I am of course not suggesting every single leftie is like that, and in fact I can think of one or two whose beliefs I disagree with but whose application I truly admire. Unfortunately, IME, they're very much in the minority

I thought that was exactly what you were suggesting.

I was reading something on here a while back that just as there is a spectrum of left and right viewpoint there is also a authoritarian to liberal spectrum as well. This pic sort of explains it. I think the left wing / authoritarian axis seems to be very prevalent in politics at the moment

You cannot expect the NHS to be run like Coca Cola. Its purpose is not rotting our teeth and turning a profit.

Generally because they introduced ISTCs which where run by private companies for profit, something that if the current government had brought in would be considered heresy.

Oh yes, because private companies are not making huge profits from NHS contracts under the current government are they?