To think a lot of left wing people are actually close minded?

[DeepFatFriar]

Close minded as in not receptive to other peoples views.

Disclaimer: i consider myself left wing.

But at the same time, I'm quite happy to have a talk with someone down the pub who might be anti immigration or anti abortion. As long as they've thought their point out properly, im open to debate and i dont feell offended by their views.
But it feels like a lot of the left wing people i come across just go into "racist twat! Fucking tory!" mode- like theyre incapable of seeing that situations are often a bit more complex than just this is right/thats wrong.

For example with Brexit, i voted remain and was gutted by the result - at the same time, i felt a bit irritated by fellow remainers "theyre all little englander tory twats" attitude to brexiters. Yeah, some of them are. Others just have a different POV, you know?

I was discussing this with my mum and she said back in her day (im assuming this means the 70s!) "conversation felt more nuanced".

It sometimes feels like a lot of left wing people just want to live in an echo chamber. I think you need to try and keep an open mind to different points of view. You clearly dont have to agree. But you can at least accept that people have different mindsets because they've had different experiences - it doesnt make them a worse person though.

I find the left and right as bad as each other. I have views that could be considered slightly left and right and have friends who sit on both sides of the fence.

Regularly hear my right wing friends trot out 'you leftie c@@t' and go on rants about the death of Lee Rigby being ignored over a load of illegal immigrants that died in the Grenfell Fire and support Tommy Robinson/Stephen Yaxley.

My left wing friends trot out the racist card at every opportunity and won't hear that there is any sort of race issue when it comes to grooming gangs or that there needs to be a sensible debate on immigration.

Luckily, most of this is sprouted over social media. Most of them are quite nice people in real life.

From a quick scan of your very long post

Sorry to have inconvenienced you

Anyway, you can't judge the entire NHS on your personal experience

On whose experience should I judge it then? Yours? You like the NHS, so I shouldn't form an opinion of it based on my own experiences, but instead should rely on yours. And you wonder why people see leftwingers as closed minded.

I appreciate that the care wasn't good but I don't think that was necessarily to do with lack of funding

That was my whole point! The NHS, IME, performs badly even when it is well funded. Waiting times might have been short (not for me, because more than once my referral letters were written but not sent, or not written at all) but waiting times are not the only measure of good care, not by a long way. But that's the problem with setting top-down targets for a nationalised service - the targets are a crude measure of quality of service, but since patients have no option to take their business elsewhere, they have to do.

Anyway, this thread has now taken me back to the situation I was in in 2011/2012 where I was being told by my leftwing friends that my experience of the NHS didn't matter, that it was good enough for everyone else so I should suck it up and keep quiet. And it upset me a lot at the time and it still upsets me, so I'll be hiding this thread now.

I suppose it can also be your own thoughts on other’s ideology. And unfortunately I have to say, despite the valiant argument that we are all individuals and are all great in different ways, I have yet to meet a person who is adamantly anti abortion that I am going to get along with in general, for one example. Because our outlook on life is so different.

And it’s not because I can’t handle different opinions, it’s because I have my own hard formed opinions based on the information I have sought to find to determine my own views. And so obviously, if someone (using the abortion example again) is willing to come up to me and be so strongly against abortion that they are wanting to “school” me on why they are right, I’m going to disagree with them because I believe it is just plain wrong. It’s not being narrow minded, it’s conviction in my own beliefs.

Lots of other things in life are not so black and white, and I am happy and open to as many different views and opinions from as many different demographics as I can get my little hands on. I’m a historian and it’s in my nature

Actually DungeonDragon they absolutely are making profit off f NHS contracts - can you provide sources which prove that they don’t?

This is the thing I have with left vs right politics. While I’m sure there is a cross over of beliefs on some things, a lot of the right wing views I have the biggest problems with are also the ones that I find right wingers who spout said views can absolutely never back their beliefs up with sources. It really does come across as believing the Murdoch media machines and using them as your only source of information.

I’m sure that can’t be true of all right wing people —just the vast majority—

SilverDoe I was being sarcastic. Sorry if that wasn't obvious.

On whose experience should I judge it then? Yours? You like the NHS, so I shouldn't form an opinion of it based on my own experiences, but instead should rely on yours. And you wonder why people see leftwingers as closed minded.

This is exactly it - other peoples experiences don’t count and their view is somewhat dismissed, it’s a case of ‘well I haven’t had that experience so you must be wrong’ I can think of several examples but the one that immediately springs to mind is the Gordon Brown/bigot lady episode.

Silverdoe, I was interested in your abortion point. I support our current abortion laws in England but I totally understand people who think a baby is a baby and abortion is murder. I don't really see why people can't understand that position. It seems dead easy to understand. I would not make me dislike or not want to talk to someone who held those views.

I certainly think it is good for everyone to be exposed to all kinds of different views. I hope teenagers can read a variety of media, different kinds of books and films and hear views from left and right before forming a view. My 5 know as long as they vote and have an opinion I am fine if it differs from mine. My problem would come if they had no views at all.

" I can think of several examples but the one that immediately springs to mind is the Gordon Brown/bigot lady episode."
So the first thing that springs to mind is something that happened what, 7 years ago?

I don’t like The Tories and I don’t agree with the views people I know who support them. But what really pisses me off are those lefties who have never seen poverty, never had to make a difficult choice about food/heat/electricity who claim to be on the side of the working class/those on benefits, but then come out with patronising statements. Often insinuating that these folk don’t know what’s best for them and we should ignore their views i.e. Brexit.

I knew a former member of left wing party who told me that if a person didn’t pass their GCSEs they should be sterilised and they shouldn’t have the right to vote.

because they don’t vote Tory they are somehow perfect and their opinions are the only valid ones.

On whose experience should I judge it then? Yours? You like the NHS, so I shouldn't form an opinion of it based on my own experiences, but instead should rely on yours.

Firstly, I haven't said that I "like" the NHS . I am not happy with how it is working at all at the moment and certainly think it could be improved although it would cost a lot of money,
Secondly, I am not basing my opinion that the NHS was in a much better state a few years ago on a single experience as a patient., I am basing it on the fact that I am a healthcare professional and I have a lot of experience of working with the NHS for over 30 years so I am well aware of the ups and downs, so yes I do think I have a better idea than you.

And you wonder why people see leftwingers as closed minded.

First, where have I wondered why people see "leftwinger as closed minded"? I have just said that it isn't related to being left or right wing. Second, where did I state that I was a "leftwinger". Third, people aren't closed-minded just because they don't agree with your opinion on something..

I can completely understand why people are anti abortion. In some ways I think it's easier to understand than the pro choice position. I just could not have as a friend someone who thought it was acceptable to force someone to have a baby they did not want. There are a number of opinions people could hold that would mean I wouldn't want to be their friend. That's not being closed minded. I will have, in all cases, considered the opinion concerned very carefully first.

So the first thing that springs to mind is something that happened what, 7 years ago?

No, because I used it as an example on another thread (slightly different topic) maybe 2/3 months ago hence it being one of the first I thought of and relevant for here too.

"I knew a former member of left wing party who told me that if a person didn’t pass their GCSEs they should be sterilised and they shouldn’t have the right to vote."

Not sure that's actually a manifesto commitment . And it actually sounds much more righr wing than left wing. I can imagine Peter Lilley or Anne Widsecombe saying it.

""I knew a former member of left wing party "

What left wing party was it, by the way?

Politically I'm sort of middle of the road,.

That said as a anti fascist organisation UAF are very anti anyone else having a opinion they don't agree with.

@BertrandRussell
My personal "wont have them as a friend" is anyone homophobic.

I dont know why, im not gay, but of all the prejudices its the one I find the most difficult to swallow.

The reason why under Labour the NHS was in a better position is becuase money was raised under PFI

We are now paying the price where things improved greatly in some area for a short space of time.The money should have been raised form increases in tax but that isn’t popular with voters as it wouldn’t be 1p

For too long we have wanted first rate health care while paying little towards it

I think Blair and Brown did some amazing work but regarding the NHS the failing of it now and it really is falling isn’t down to cuts from last 8 years it is down to bad decisions made by consecutive governments and the investing of money that wasn’t there in the first place

It’s time to let the NHS go and replace our health system and look to how other European countries healthcare systems. We shall have to pay quite a bit we are flogging a dead horse it’s tome to put our pride in the NHS aside it was a great idea but it was never sustainable with the taxes we pay and it certainly isn’t now with its huge debts

This is a great thread to read. It is one of the most open-minded (in all directions) I've seen recently.

Bertrand Russell, if you're surprised I'd consider bishops left wing I assume you're not very familiar with the CofE.

They are the Labour Party at prayer these days.

“They are the Labour Party at prayer these days.”

You are Lord Redesdale and I claim my £5.

I don't really affiliate myself politically as left or right , I guess I am centrist Mum. The thing that has really truck me in recent times is people stating things as fact when the actual facts don't support their assertions. Facts and evidence seem to have been relegated to occasionally useful but often unnecessary.

We all have a lot more in common than not.

@frumpety
Yes you can see it in action on this thread.
Still no one has answered my question about who the "Lefties/Liberals/Left wing" people they accuse of being closed minded actually are. Seems to be anyone who is left of the centre as though they all have exactly the same views.

To be fair Ray I am not going to claim to be immune to doing the exact same thing at times when emotions are running high, that is the thing with opinions. I can hold an opinion even if it isn't based in any way, shape or form on facts. Facts on the other hand are pretty much indisputable until proved otherwise

So I can claim that the average adult hedgehog weighs far more than the average adult badger. The vast majority of people on here will have no previous experience of weighing either creature, so cannot possibly base their assertion that I am completely wrong on experience. They can have a quick google which would furnish them with the facts that support their assertion that I am completely and utterly wrong.

So I can claim that the average adult hedgehog weighs far more than the average adult badger. The vast majority of people on here will have no previous experience of weighing either creature, so cannot possibly base their assertion that I am completely wrong on experience

Well funny you should say that Frumpety as I can say from having the misfortune of hitting both with my car (the badger was particularly upsetting) that damage from hedgehog= zero, damage from badger= dented front grill, so I would deduce from my experience the badger definitely weighed more than the hedgehog so would then have to disagree with you

I disagree OP - I think this generalisation applies to both the left and right with neither being more dogmatic than one another. I am passionate about politics and love engaging with others with opposing views but, like you, get a tad frustrated when they have no rationale for their stance on certain right wing subjects such as immigration, privatisation and welfare. I expect right wing folk feel the same when lefties have no real substance to their arguments.

Also, you’ll always get people who will just disagree because the other party is not on the same political wave length.