To think a lot of left wing people are actually close minded?

[DeepFatFriar]

Close minded as in not receptive to other peoples views.

Disclaimer: i consider myself left wing.

But at the same time, I'm quite happy to have a talk with someone down the pub who might be anti immigration or anti abortion. As long as they've thought their point out properly, im open to debate and i dont feell offended by their views.
But it feels like a lot of the left wing people i come across just go into "racist twat! Fucking tory!" mode- like theyre incapable of seeing that situations are often a bit more complex than just this is right/thats wrong.

For example with Brexit, i voted remain and was gutted by the result - at the same time, i felt a bit irritated by fellow remainers "theyre all little englander tory twats" attitude to brexiters. Yeah, some of them are. Others just have a different POV, you know?

I was discussing this with my mum and she said back in her day (im assuming this means the 70s!) "conversation felt more nuanced".

It sometimes feels like a lot of left wing people just want to live in an echo chamber. I think you need to try and keep an open mind to different points of view. You clearly dont have to agree. But you can at least accept that people have different mindsets because they've had different experiences - it doesnt make them a worse person though.

yes, I agree with OP. I don't talk to left wing people any more about politics. I used to be one of them in the days when it was a genuine outlet for idealism. Now I often find them to be self-absorbed bores, often completely self-righteous and intolerant of views other than their own. Also, they never want to engage in dialogue, which I think is a new thing. Its taken so much for granted that they are 'right'.

And I love Morrissey. Love his music! And the fact he says what he thinks. Something that should never be allowed of course!

And liberals (irony) have become the MOST INTOLERANT people on earth. If you don't agree with them, you are clearly someone totally reprehensible!

But who are you talking about? Who are "Liberals?" Are they the Labour Party? Are they anyone who is not a Tory?
I don't think it is one homogeneous group.

Not from reading. All my family are left wing and most of my friends too and plenty of colleagues as I have worked mainly in the public sector. So it’s from conversations, not reading

My point still stands, then, danci. It might be a good idea to start reading, from a range of sources from all sides of the spectrum.

Additionally, I have never met anyone with that range of views - and I am liberal and associate with primarily liberal people. If you wish to promote dissent - a right-wing tactic - it might be useful. Otherwise it’s simply intellectually lazy.

Many posters do not seem to have ever listened to the phone ins on right leaning radio stations or read the comments on newspaper sites. I recommend they do-they might be shocked at the many intolerant, closed minded right wing people feature............

Liberal =/=left wing.

Historically, liberals have sometimes been on the left, and sometimes on the right, and sometimes both. In Victorian times, they stood for better education, an increased franchise, and workers' rights, ie, things that would give the average person more freedom, and they stood for this in opposition to the Tories, who wanted to maintain social order. After WW2, they were more likely to be on the right, as left-wing politics was strongly communitarian.

Some people would say Thatcher was a liberal because she encouraged self-reliance (I'd say that on social matters she was actually quite authoritarian).

So not a homogeneous group at all. But person who wants to silence another person isn't any sort of liberal as far as I'm concerned.

I think a lot of one nation Torres would object to the conflation of left wing and liberal.....

Tories. I have no idea what Torres would think.

I think this thread, and a lot of the posts show that there are a lot of sweeping generalisations, anecdote being used as arguments here, which means that they are particularly poor.

Overall the level of internet discourse on politics is poor, for everyone objecting to the use of the word "gammon" I'd advise you to remember the broad use of the words snowlfalke and cuck by right wing posters and commentators on many threads.

Also there are so many factual inaccauracies in posts its hard to know where to start. A lot of the stuff about the left not listening to the working class is merely a political trope. The stuff about lefties being pro immigration and then not living in areas with immigration is also inaccurate, virtually of the constituencies with the highest levels of immigration return Labour MP's where as all of the ones that return a huigh UKIP vote have lower immigration.

Is this about "tolerance" or is it about dismissing arguments that aren't accurate. You can have an opionion, it doesn't make it right, and nor should all opinions be treated equally.

For example, you can sit in Hartlepool and listen to the person saying that immigration is ruining their way of life, but when Hartlepool is 97% white British is it accurate and what can actually be done about it?

There is a difference between listening to views, and giving them credence.

Oh and yes, I find it very patronising that someone will sit there and say that the "left" aren't listening to the working class, and then vote for right wing parties whose policies directly make the lives of the working class worse.

bertrand leave the lovely Fernando out of this

Thanks @DeepFatFriar @time4chocolate @LadyWithLapdog - I've been waiting a while to get that lot off my chest!

Usually when someone tells me I am close minded they mean I am not willing to agree with them and am willing to tell them why I disagree. Funny that.

tompinch, exactly. A lot of very right wing figures (prison planet springs to mind) describe themselves as Classical Liberals:

I would describe myself as a liberal in a lot of ways too, as I don’t believe anything in people’s private lives should be interefered with by the government if at all possible and I am strongly against governments making moral judgements on the behaviour of it’s citizens unless unavoidable because it is causing harm to others.

Those are liberal positions but not ones I would readily associate with an increasingly authoritarian left wing these days.

My point still stands, then, danci. It might be a good idea to start reading, from a range of sources from all sides of the spectrum.

I read extensively thank you. I have subscriptions to the Spectator and New Statesman for starters so you’re patronising isn’t needed nor welcome but thanks for your concern.

That specific observation was based on my contact with people in general as we are discussing people in general rather than the academic zeitgeist.

The stuff about lefties being pro immigration and then not living in areas with immigration is also inaccurate

Geographically they might be close, but if your middle class lefty (and I know I'm making a generalisation there but bear with me) is living in a bought house and they've got workplace private health insurance and a plan to evacuate their kids from the local education system once they get to secondary age (and I have been that person) then socially they might as well be on the moon.

You are making generalisations and they are not broadly accurate, but a very specific strawman.

*I read extensively thank you. I have subscriptions to the Spectator and New Statesman for starters so you’re patronising isn’t needed nor welcome but thanks for your concern.

That specific observation was based on my contact with people in general as we are discussing people in general rather than the academic zeitgeist*

Ooh. I’m blown away by your intellect and lack of close-mindedness.

bertrandrussell

I wouldn't have considered one-nation Tories particularly liberal. As traditionalists, they wouldn't be very keen on diversity of thought.

Ooh. I’m blown away by your intellect and lack of close-mindedness.

No. I just like taking in information. A lot, to the point where it is almost a conpulsion and if I’m waiting for the microwave to ping I read the nutritional information.

Unfortunately it also extends to reading heat and Popbitch, Mumsnet and pop culture biographies as well as the Spectator and Mary Beard, so I can’t claim high mindedness. But I’m buggered if I’m going to take a lecture on the need to read more. I need to read less if anything.

A lot of people say Liberal when they mean far left Momentum supporters. But as you have pointed out that isn't what Liberal means.

"They are Generally:

"Anti-Israel (and say they’re just anti-Zionist)"
I don't know many people of either persuasion who object to Israel's right to exist, but I know a great many left wing people who object to Israel's policy of occupation and its treatment of the Palestinian people. Often this is described as being anti Israel, it isn't, if that's the case then so are the International Courts of Justice, the UN, the Primary Courts of the Geneva convenstion, who all agree that under international law the occupation is illegal.

"Pro full gay equality"
Whats wrong with that?

"Heavily pro migration"

Is this a problem? Many of the objections to immigration are based on prejudice not on realities of the situation. Listening to people repeat them ad nauseum doesn't make them true.

"Not patriotic and generally a bit embarrassed by their nationality "

You don't have to be patriotic, its not a requirement. Many people are actually patriotic but don't want to engage in overt displays of patriotism encouraged by others. Some that are overtly patriotic blur the lines between patriotism and nationalism.

"Heavily pro benefits and relaxed about abuse of the benefits system or deny it happens."

The evidence shows that benefit fraud, or abuse of the benefit system is very low,.The benefit system is a necessary feature of society.

Vocally feminist but if male don’t actually back it up with action.

Evdience?

Pro Islam almost to the point of fetishisation

Or more anti people who are "anti Islam" and make sweeping generalizations about it in order to back up their points.

"Pro PC enjoys policing speech"

Or objecting to use of deregatory terms?

"Anti-US but might go there on holiday"

You can be anti the current US administration but still go there on holiday- conflating two separate things.

"Pro-nationalisation and Keynseian economics"

Keynesian economics works in the majority of cases, one of the reasons that the working class that you were so defending earlier are down to the implementation of neo liberal economics by right wing governments for 40 years.

"In favour of heavy social control and believes that the answer do most problems is for the state to sort it out"

The opposite being the free market to sort it out, it doesn't do so, and in reality doesn't exist, those who argue for it merely do so because it suits them in the current status quo.

"Views any discussion of migration systems or control as racist"

Or object to you discussing immigration whilst making inaccurate claims?

"Heavily pro NHS and anti reform or scrutiny"

Because the reforms brought in since 2008 have worked?

"Pro unions in all circumstances"

Unions protect workers rights, nothing wrong with that.

Oh and yes, I find it very patronising that someone will sit there and say that the "left" aren't listening to the working class, and then vote for right wing parties whose policies directly make the lives of the working class worse.

There is no party for the working class, it's just that the vocal labour supporters pretend they are, if they however vote differently they are suddenly stupid or fall for "propaganda" as evidence in your post or trawl through many of the threads on here after the recent general elections.

Note how they didn't reverse the benefit cuts in the manifesto last election, how they don't want to stop immigration, how they find multiple billions for free tuition (which poor people pay for disproportionately).

Note how during the last GE, they didn't reverse the benefit cuts in the manifesto, how they don't want to stop immigration, how they find multiple billions for free tuition (which poor people pay for disproportionately).

IFS analysis on the effects of the manifestos shows this. Labour only slightly better than the Tories for the poorest.

www.ippr.org/files/Data/ifs-graph-impact-of-personal-tax-and-benefit-measures.png

Its funny that you say they speak for the working class yet C2DE are leaving.
twitter.com/election_data/status/1005013629912088576

Ah I didn't say they speak for the working class, I said I found it ironic that people criticised the left wing ( which doesn't mean they have to be in entire agreement with Labour policy) for not helping the working classes and then voting for a party which does even worse.