To think a lot of left wing people are actually close minded?

[DeepFatFriar]

Close minded as in not receptive to other peoples views.

Disclaimer: i consider myself left wing.

But at the same time, I'm quite happy to have a talk with someone down the pub who might be anti immigration or anti abortion. As long as they've thought their point out properly, im open to debate and i dont feell offended by their views.
But it feels like a lot of the left wing people i come across just go into "racist twat! Fucking tory!" mode- like theyre incapable of seeing that situations are often a bit more complex than just this is right/thats wrong.

For example with Brexit, i voted remain and was gutted by the result - at the same time, i felt a bit irritated by fellow remainers "theyre all little englander tory twats" attitude to brexiters. Yeah, some of them are. Others just have a different POV, you know?

I was discussing this with my mum and she said back in her day (im assuming this means the 70s!) "conversation felt more nuanced".

It sometimes feels like a lot of left wing people just want to live in an echo chamber. I think you need to try and keep an open mind to different points of view. You clearly dont have to agree. But you can at least accept that people have different mindsets because they've had different experiences - it doesnt make them a worse person though.

The reason why under Labour the NHS was in a better position is becuase money was raised under PFI

Not quite. The money was for buildings - not for Day to day running costs. Because previous government hadn’t maintained them. And this is a perennial problem which is now happening in our schools. The buildings are run down and it’ll cost more to sort them out because it’s been left so long. Yet governments fail again to learn lessons.

The NHS is suffering from an increase in ageing population and an increasingly unhealthy population. Everyone in government knows this, they just won’t accept it needs more money as a result.

Why do people think a European model is the right one?

I agree.

Left wing luvvies are even more entrenched and dogmatic than those on the other side. There is no debate to be had!

There is an assumption that a lack of education (which may not be by choice) and being less articulate is the same as stupidity.

YANBU but yes, it's not exclusive to the left. It's just a little hypocritical perhaps that they probably present themselves as tolerant and open-minded when actually they won't consider other views than their own.

I am generally quite lefty on most things and my BIL is quite right wing. We disagree on most things politically, but we do get on really well and quite enjoy debating things after a couple of gins!

Challenging your own ideas, and understanding arguments that you disagree with is surely a more intelligent approach.

I'm not sure about a left wing issue per se. I think that social media - because it has given everyone a platform to express their views - seems to have somehow caused people to become less tolerant of others or perhaps they were always less tolerant but now feel more enabled. If you go on right wing newspaper websites and express liberal or left wing views or pro-remain views then you will likely get shouted down and conversely, if you go on newspaper sites that have a left wing slant then you will equally get shouted down. I think that people with left wing views tend to be more politically active and in general, the demographic for labour voters is younger than Tory voters so that might explain why one hears more left wing views in public and I think that brexit has also been to blame for tolerance for other views going downhill. I am afraid that fault for that lies on both sides (accusations of racism and xenophobia on one side and instructions to 'get over it' because 'we won' on the other).

Time poor hedgehog and badger

I like people ( and badgers and hedgehogs), there are very few who I have the energy to actively dislike, even if their political views or opinions differ from mine (with some notable exceptions), I can almost always find some common ground

We do seem to have dropped the ball as a country when it comes to our expectations of our politicians though, if feels as though we almost expect them to be a bit rubbish and not entirely honest.

I think it applies to people in general. I think all the politicians are beyond awful at the moment and none deserve my vote.

This is an online problem, it's easier to be very hard line both ways online. In real life, people are much more moderate and nuanced generally. It's not just left wing people though.

I don’t like The Tories and I don’t agree with the views people I know who support them. But what really pisses me off are those lefties who have never seen poverty, never had to make a difficult choice about food/heat/electricity who claim to be on the side of the working class/those on benefits, but then come out with patronising statements. Often insinuating that these folk don’t know what’s best for them and we should ignore their views i.e. Brexit.

And just to prove that point, if anyone is interested then do take a look at the EU Ref Board, thread Westministenders Redux, you might not want to plough through the whole thread but do have a look at page 25 - 27. Classic example (and there are many on there) of someone daring to post with a different view point and then what is said subsequently. Intelligent/liberal? I think not.

To be fair Time I have taken the time to look at the thread you mentioned and the person who I think you are talking about with a differing opinion , came on said something and others on the thread offered facts to counter their argument. The general gist of their argument being that the EU needs us more than we need them or something along those lines. Quite a few posters on that thread mentioned the names of Leave voters who had contributed previously in a sensible grown up kind of way. I think anyone with actual facts regarding how Brexit will occur and how it will be an improvement on the current and previous state of affairs is always welcome

And you can't say that they don't tear apart any politician of any persuasion who is seen to be lacking integrity or even a smidgen of common sense ?

Frumpety

They can tear apart any politician they like, politicians they are fair game for that.

But this:

Brexiteers only answer to all questions is "we won, get over it" and "that's not my problem" ... and when pressed they invariably mutter something about immigration and/or sovereignty when it's obvious - 2 years on - they still know fuck all about either

User and others of your kind - stop shutting your ears to those who are far far more knowledgeable and, yes, intelligent than you are, and who actually care about our country and its citizens

I know user is a GF but shouldn't GFs be making an attempt not to appear so very thick? After all - that we think they're thick is a leavers greatest complaint. So those that engage in attempts to troll us should really be trying harder not to perform to stereotype. Shouldn't they?
Is it too much to ask that GFs either say something intelligent or just don't bother

That’s just from the two pages I mentioned in my earlier OP.
You think the above is ok, that it’s justified?
Do you really think people are going to want to engage in discussion when the responses you get are like that (and believe me I have tried over the last two years)?.

It’s shitty and certainly not intelligent by any stretch of the imagination.

time My response refers to other threads - but whenever a conservative has posted, usually it is aggressive in nature and they don’t want to engage in discussion. We would be happy to do that an not just exchange barbs, but IME these posters are like magpies: they fly in, poo in the thread, and disappear.

I am still trying to work out what GF stands for

The intelligence comments are a bit below the belt, however I am not sure that those comments would have been made if they didn't think they were responding to another troll iyswim.

Personally, I am, as always somewhere in the middle , I think Brexit is a stupid idea , but that does not mean that I think people who voted Leave are necessarily stupid. I can understand someone's argument, but that doesn't mean that I have to agree with it or that it is even right

frumpety GF = goady fucker.

TheClaws of course , how silly of me !

My IL are ardent Labour supporters (a relative of their’s was a Labour councillor until he was removed for bringing the party into disrepute!) yet their views are right wing.

They will never admit it. They are “born Labour” apparently. I’m a “stuck up bitch” for voting Tory. Their son, DH, is “gay” for voting Tory. Their granddaughter’s stepmother is a and should “go home” because she’s not British or white.

OK, they’re not very educated, probably not their fault, but there is no need to be rude, racist, sexist and homophobic.

This is my main experience of Labour voters!!

Ooh my censoring was censored! My ILs call DN’s stepmother a nasty racist word because of the colour of her skin.

What I find so hard is white people telling me that I need to be more patient with other people's opinions and not shut them down by calling them racist. I say only white people because I have never been told this by a person of colour. Probably because it's bloody easy to be patient when somebody isn't personally attacking you for what you look like!

Take this example. A man is complaining about 'all these bloody Muslims taking over our area' when referring to refugees and immigration. He has made a massive generalisation about all refugees and migrants, and referred to Muslims with negative connotations. I consider this Islamophobic and racist as a Bangladeshi Muslim. However when I say this, people tell me that I need to respect his opinion. Why are we supposed to be patient? Why are WoC continuously being told that we need to be more tolerant of other's intolerance? So that we don't hurt their precious feelings? Well what about ours? Oh, I forgot. No one cares

“OK, they’re not very educated, probably not their fault, but there is no need to be rude, racist, sexist and homophobic.

This is my main experience of Labour voters!!”

Right. And do you think that is in any way typical of Labour voters?

OK, they’re not very educated, probably not their fault

Yeah people tell me this a lot, really pisses me off. Why do uneducated people get a pass for discrimination? They still have a brain. They can distinguish between right and wrong.

BertrandRussell I have no idea, they are the only ones I know.

“BertrandRussell I have no idea, they are the only ones I know.”

Could you take a guess, perhaps?

I should say, the only ones I know who shove their politics in my face. There are probably Labour supporters all over the place but I don’t know it because we don't discuss it!

BertrandRussell No

BertrandRussell Not going to guess anything. You sound like you want to pick a fight.