In Connecticut, two teenage boys who identify as girls have come 1st and 2nd in the girls' 100m sprint

[OrchidInTheSun]

twitter.com/GameTimeCT/status/1003739370736816129

Reposted from Feminism Chat as more people need to see this.

Neither Miller nor Yearwood have got times that would be remotely remarkable for boys (200th and 443rd respectively) but they are smashing the girls' records out of the park as now they identify as girls, they're allowed to race them instead.

Watch the face of the girl who comes third. That's pretty much her best ever 100m race. But she didn't win.

Self identification means this kind of thing will keep on happening. If you value women's sport and think that women and girls deserve to compete on a level playing field, please sign the petition: petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

On the men thinking "what's the point" about women's sport (unless the women are attractive) -

I never really enjoyed watching team sports generally, preferring stuff like athletics, tennis, snooker, individual stuff.

In recent years there has been more women's team sports shown - rubgy I seem to have caught quite a lot - and I've got really into it. I think fundamentally there is something about the people competing being from your group, as it were. So, on that basis I'm not surprised that lots of men find women's sports dull. However, women seem to quite enjoy watching it. Thing is men in general are used to having sport be all blokes so it must be a change to have some swapped out for women. But - but - women have had to settle for watching men or nothing for years. I don't think men really get that, do they. "Man as default" means that women and girls are expected to enjoy / watch / whatever men & boys do things & identify and get something from it. Meanwhile, there is never an expectation that the same would work the other way. Right from school it is accepted that girls can read any books, but boys "need" ones where the central characters are boys. It's really interesting. There was an article recently about how telling boys through pretty much all media that they are the central lead in their own story - a hero who will "get the girl" (if that's the way they are inclined) - is resulting in a rise in untrammelled misogyny & violence when society doesn't give them what they have been promised they can have.

Anyway side track, I can try and dig it out if anyone is interested

If be interested if it's handy Sardine.

On a purely biological level, there are differences between those born with male DNA and those born with female DNA. Even if transitioning affects that, these are teens, so they haven't fully transitioned yet, which means they retain much of that advantage. The point of competitions like this are to race your (physical/age) peers, and that didn't happen there. These two girls need to run against peers, which in this case would probably be the guys. It would not only ensure the girls' team had fair competition, it'd ensure that any victories the two girls in question had would be solid. Any victory they had would feel earned, not hollow, and no one could ever toss out "cheating" accusations.

That's really interesting Sardine. I have read my boy children - deliberately - books where the lead characters are female but they're quite hard to find. That was just my railing against the all-pervasive narrative of boy as hero but interesting to hear that it contributes to that overweening self-importance. I'd also be interested

I was told today (by a man) that we wanted equality and this is part of gaining equality that all are treated the same and sex is ignored wtf

Then went on to tell me that trans men/women suffer so much self hatred that they don’t just change gender to have an easier life. I am not so sure and regardless how they feel about themselves does not change biology it’s not fucking rocket science

I strongly suspect these two aren’t even “proper” trans people. That they’re simply saying they’re trans to try and get a scholarship. After all that’s all they have to do, no medical procedures or hormones needed.

What is a proper trans person though? According to TRAs anyone who says they are a woman is a woman.

I was told today (by a man) that we wanted equality and this is part of gaining equality that all are treated the same and sex is ignored wtf

Ask him if he favours doing away with weight classes in boxing.

Sardine I completely agree. I thought I just found team sport boring. But with the women's rugby and football I quite enjoy it. You're right. I actually don't want to watch a bunch of men chasing a ball but am quite happy to watch the women!

You know, I acknowledge there's an issue here but if they're taking HRT putting trans women in the 'male' race category is both unfair and misgendering.

I don't really have a solution here, but some women on this website are awfully rude and demeaning about their opinions and thoughts on this matter.

They aren't taking hormones, and even if they were it wouldn't diminish skeletal structure, muscle format and lung capacity. Have a trans competition.

I don't really have a solution here, but some women on this website are awfully rude and demeaning about their opinions and thoughts on this matter

Sooo...vague generalisations are better than specific instances of whatever the fuck you actually mean?

Sooo...vague generalisations are better than specific instances of whatever the fuck you actually mean?

I kind of have better things to do with my 4am time up with arthritis pain than go through 200 odd messages only to get shouted down because they don't see the messages as having a bad message where I do.

Clearly, my opinion on trans people differs from those on mumsnet as somebody who is trans. Nothing wrong with that, but there's a lot of people referring to them as boys/men/males. They're still girls, but it's clearly unfair that they're in a race with somebody they have a biological advantage over in sport.

Nothing wrong with that, but there's a lot of people referring to them as boys/men/males. They're still girls,

No, they are Male. humans cannot change sex. Ever. Under any circumstances

Wow it’s just an example of male dominance. Utter disregard of women’s achievements and even our feelings. Men and women are massively different, I always say it when watching ninja warrior. The women competing are always body builders or personal trainers and have worked massively hard to strengthen their bodies and work in a field that helps them maintain the physique. The men who compete (especially in the first lot of shows) turn up looking like they’ve just walked in off the street, done little to no physical prep for the event and still do well. Hell the last one I watched the first man to make it through the whole course had skinny jeans on!
So on a ‘level playing field’ such as that show men still excel, and that’s not women screaming that it’s not fair, that’s just biology!

Is that plopping

Bump - from a parent with a daughter who loves her sport.

Only in America? No.

“Schools should aim to reduce as far as possible segregating pupils and students by gender. Trans* pupils and students should be supported to enable equal access to PE and where lessons are segregated by gender should be enabled to participate in the activity which corresponds to their gender identity if this is what they request.
Concerns have been raised that some trans pupils and students may be at a competitive advantage, particularly young trans women, whose bodies may well have developed slightly stronger than their genetic female class mates. This however should not be a problem if lessons are carefully structured and managed and learning appropriately differentiated” – East Sussex County Council

Bump

Concerns have been raised that some trans pupils and students may be at a competitive advantage, particularly young trans women, whose bodies may well have developed slightly stronger than their genetic female class mates. This however should not be a problem if lessons are carefully structured and managed and learning appropriately differentiated

That’s a worrying quote.

Sorry to keep harping in about rugby here but it’s my area of expertise.

I could absolutely in the situation of a coaching session ensure safe and rewarding activities for girls and transgirls. We could do passing drills, placement, fitness, feet skills, working on team formations.

However as soon as you add the Contact into the mix THERE is the issue.

This inclusion of boys in elite girls' sport is achieved solely by excluding the same amount of girls from girls' races. That is clear. The biology of these boys is what lets them succeed, not their transgender identity.

But it is worse than that because we also have an ever increasing group of girls who identify as boys. And we all know that this group will never be able to compete at an elite sporting level against boys (because of course their female physiology will prevent this). Their biology is what is holding them back, not their transgender identity.

So girls miss out and those girls who think they can identify their way out of their biology also miss out. Because of their biology.

We seem to have a situation where girls who identify as boys are completely excluded from elite boys' sport. And always will be. And none of the TRAs have a word to say about it.

Boys inclusion in girls' elite sport though? Girls must give up their places immediately.

Chances are that the two 'winners' were allowed to use the girls' changing facilities too.

Times have changed. Sports needs to start using height/weight categories instead. Men have varying levels of testosterone so why make women test for it and medically lower it before they can ve seen to be competing equally (like Caster Semenya) but not men? That's sexist. Yes, it's complicated, but parasports seem to manage fine with creating physical attribute categories.

If any male can do this, that’s women’s sport, all of it, down the swanny. There will be no more women’s sport. Of any kind.

There's a reason why women's sports were established - where's the justification and debate about changing this fundamentally? It's policy by stealth - literally - males creeping into female spaces and winning womens' and girls' events because they are male - despite what they say - - it does indeed make a mockery of women and girls and must be stopped

You know, I acknowledge there's an issue here but if they're taking HRT putting trans women in the 'male' race category is both unfair and misgendering.
And making biological females run against people who have been born and raised as male is unfair but we are expected to suck it up?!
Elite sportspeople are being pushed out by fairly mediocre ones, as judged by the accepted “standard” of sports, most of which are Categorised by people who are born male and people who are born female.
Birth sex should be acknowledged.

A good way for boys to insure a scholarship and then decide to live as male again.

I think the scholarship only continues as long as the athlete remains competitive in her/his chosen sport. Americans please correct me if I'm wrong.

Miller's thigh vs Lalonde's. A girl has no chance in sprints against male musculature.

I don't really care if Miller and Yearwood are 'genuine' trans or faking it to win races and scolarships because the end result is the same. Girls lose out.