DD wants to move university for the second time?!?!

[Bonnici]

DD went to Kings in London and disliked it, she dropped out after freshers and reapplied to universities and took a gap year.

Then she got into Cambridge, which we were all delighted as it was what she always wanted. She's just finished her first year there but now has dropped a bombshell.

She's applied for a transfer to UCL and has been accepted. She wants to go into second year there.

What the fuck do we say? I want her to feel supported but she just needs to get on with it. Plus UCL will take a hit for her employability?

Tatiana, "Surely your very good education taught you not to make assumptions on the basis of fuck all."

Well, it doesn't seem to have stopped you leaping to assumptions about Oxbridge based on your own personal experience.

I'm stating as fact that I barely ever saw a Sloane at Oxford. If you saw loads, I must assume that reflects you as it certainly doesn't reflect the university.

As Storminateapot said, to me coming from a London public school = Sloane.

The really important thing is for the student in question, to graduate with an honours degree. Once they have secured the degree, no employer will have much interest in the path towards that degree.

On a personal note, however, there are times when one has to 'dig deep'. i say this as a 57 year old, reasonably successful project manager. Sometimes, it is good to know that one has survived, even thrived, in the face of challenges.

I wouldn't be worried about the value of a UCL degree in Economics, but for Classics she would be better off staying at Cambridge.

My worry would be that she sounds like a quitter. I would also be far from happy about her applying for new universities without discussing finances with me, if I was paying part of her costs.

But at the end of the day I'm not sure how much there is you can do about this.

I grew up within commuting distance of London and had several friends who went to London unis (including UCL) and mostly lived at home. I do think the experience at London unis is very different to any other. The fact your DD has already done some time at a London uni and didn't like it makes me wonder why she thinks she will feel differently this time. She's obviously bright - can you encourage her to work out all the things she didn't like abput Kings and how UCL will be different- or even if it will.

I went to Cambridge in the early 90s. I didn't find it pressured but I was doing Law which has part 1a and b tripos. Classics I assume is just Part 1 so no exams until the end of y2. I can see how that is tougher, friends doing History and English did struggle a bit with that. I wouldn't say my Cambridge experience was fantastic, I went to the smallest, oldest college which was full of very wealthy mainly public school educated people, who I didn't have much in common with and who looked down on me because I was a bit Essex-y and working class. Thst said one of the best things about Cambridge for me was the sense of security and closeness. The town always felt pretty safe. Everything was nearby and walking distance. I can't imagine swapping that for a London uni where you have no campus and are, as a PP said, fairly isolated and left to your own devices. It really is very different from other unis and I'd want her to be sure it's what she actually wants.

I think it's more likely to take a "hit for her employability" the fact she can't decide and stay settled in one place. But it's her life, so let her make her own mistakes, if you call UCL a mistake.

Lion
The not being that old is a disadvantage. I take it you weren’t around before Diana, a Sloane Ranger got engaged to prince Charles.

Tatiana
Do you mean public school or state school? Very different. The former is likely to be a Sloane, not so much the latter.

Bonnici
I can understand why you feel this way. When we were at university, you just kind of did the course, it was free. And while I was there, there were grants although they’d been capped off and loans introduced. Nowadays what students do, where they go and how comfortable thet feel is very important because they’re paying. I was open mouthed tbh because changing unis and courses was rare.

Your dd sounds very capable. She’s applied and been accepted each time, which is pretty impressive. I think she’s going to go a long way. Perhaps her expectation and ideals of how she would like life to be are rather high - well definitely higher than when I was her age for sure - but I think your role is probably to sit back and support her, step in and pick up the pieces if things go wrong.

I would have thought being educated at a London public school was the very definition of Sloane

With respect that indicates you either don’t know precisely what a Sloane is or the nuances of London public school intake. No reason why you should, it’s not particularly interesting.

She's vacillating between philosophy and classics and your worry about her employability is the choice between UCL and Cambridge? You're worrying about the wrong thing

I was about to say something similar

Well, it doesn't seem to have stopped you leaping to assumptions about Oxbridge based on your own personal experience.

It’s not an assumption. If I speculated about what it might have been like with no experience, that would be an assumption.

I'm stating as fact that I barely ever saw a Sloane at Oxford. If you saw loads, I must assume that reflects you as it certainly doesn't reflect the university.

I was talking of Cambridge to be precise, nor did I use the word ‘loads’. But some of my best friends were at Oxford so I spent time there and I did my MSt there. Two of them were at colleges with a high state school intake, (Hertford and St Anne’s) so few Sloanes there, but other colleges, such as Christchurch and Oriel were more Sloane heavy.

But it turns out you don’t actually know what a Sloane is, so it’s hardly surprising if you didn’t notice them.

As Storminateapot said, to me coming from a London public school = Sloane.

Nope.

I went to Cambridge in the late 80s and it was terribly terribly posh. I shared a house in year 3 and all my housemates and friends came from private school. I seriously barely met anyone from a comp and I was a sort of fascinating anomaly to them. Just my experience and years ago. FWIW they all now have amazing jobs, or did have, a couple of them have retired very rich indeed. I don't/am not

I think so much of this depends on her reasoning. If she's just changing uni. every time things are not going perfectly or out of some kind of anxiety it would be essential to deal with those issues rather than continue to run away.

In terms of employability Oxbridge has an edge for some very competitive industries. DH works in a very academic field and although there are definitely plenty of people with non-oxbridge degrees it's a bit of an advantage in getting your foot in the door (beyond that it will make little difference as you'll be judged much more on your performance within the industry). Mainly just because he gets literally thousands of CVs so they're just not going to interview all the good candidates. The tutorial system does have an advantage in itself in that it tends to prepare students very well for interview.

If she does a masters or PhD again it will make not much difference. UCL is a also a very good university so it certainly wouldn't rule her out from any future employment even in a competitive field (a lesser university might).

OP, if this was my dd I would be suspecting flake-like tendencies and would be concerned.

If she does a masters or PhD again it will make not much difference.
Sorry this was unclear I meant if she goes on to do a masters or PhD it won't make as much difference where she did her undergrad.

I wouldn't say my Cambridge experience was fantastic, I went to the smallest, oldest college which was full of very wealthy mainly public school educated people, who I didn't have much in common with and who looked down on me because I was a bit Essex-y and working class

I’m sorry to hear that. Peterhouse is quite a Sloaney college, or it was in my day.

I went to Cambridge in the late 80s and it was terribly terribly posh

Quite. I went up in 90.

Tbf I think Cambridge has made a big effort to be more socially inclusive and the state school intake is higher now than it was then.

But still notably few black students, as was reported recently.

Yes, I think she is finding the rah types to be overbearing. I’ve tried ro remind her that UCL will be most of that sort back up/other first choice. As it is easy access to their homes in SW3.

Although an interesting tangent, I’d never heard of people dismissing a Cambridge classics degree as a bad choice for employment. I’d always been told it was a staple of the city etc like history

Will she have better employability though?! because switching multiple times, then graduating later which will mean her competition is increased as she's older and also she will probably need a damn good reason as to why she wanted to flit around too much. It as legitimate question employers will ask.

I'm all for university application but regardless of whatever university you go to, the real world is about life skills especiallt perseverence.

Also couldn't she do her cambridge degree and then Do her masters at UCL? Surely that would be better? 6

Oh god yes, lots of people were posh! But not pissed Sloanes and not rah types. More traditional old upper middle class, whether state or private tbh. But yes, very college dependent.

As you say op I suspect UCL will be just as bad if not worse in that respect. There are pockets of Cambridge social life that are fantastic, but she might need to actively seek them out. Id be reminding your DD that searching your social niche is part of university, life in fact, and it doesn't necessarily turn up on a plate. If you run somewhere new every time it looks a bit difficult, you'll end up running your entire life and never finding what you are looking for.

Gah, *finding your social niche, sorry

I had the same issue when I started at Oxford, I felt really out of place. I think the obnoxious people are just much more loud and hence visible. If that's her only issue I'd really advise her to keep at it. It can take a while to find your niche but it's a large university and there'll be people there who she gets on with. She already 1/3 of the way through.

I'd advise her to start a hobby - even if there's nothing that particularly jumps out at her. Starting again at UCL in the second year will be difficult socially.

Don't worry too much about the snobby comments about a philosophy degree. I'm STEM myself but my friends who did classics and philosophy are all very happily employed. In that sense an Oxbridge degree does concur an advantage - I think more in those subjects actually than in STEM.

Yes, I think she is finding the rah types to be overbearing

This is an absolutely ridiculous reason to leave, there's plenty of comprehensive school (and nice normal private school ) pupils at Cambridge, I was one and socially my second and third years were a lot of fun once I'd stopped feeling like I had to go to various not my type of events.

She's doing Classics, what does she expect?! This is not taught in state schools for the most part, so it's inevitable that on that course you are going to get a more narrow type of person. It's not to do with Cambridge, and going to UCL Classics won't solve it.

Philosophy students in particular, from excellent unis with high grades, are in high demand amongst employers. This is because they have to have a very high tariff to enter this course, and once there, engage in logical thinking. It's a hard course and so is a badge of honour to get a first in it- a first in Philosophy or indeed Classics from Oxbridge is a fantastic asset, from UCL perhaps a tiny bit less so but still impressive nonetheless. Anyone who makes out the degree course has no employability potential doesn't know the jobs market at the top end for grads at all.

Which college is she at? Cambridge colleges are so unique and your experience at one can be completely and utterly different to your experience at another. I would rather she looked at moving colleges than moving universities again. What is it she doesn't like exactly?

A Classics degree (from Oxbridge especially) is pretty employable in the City etc. People on this thread and elsewhere chortling about the unemployability of Philosophy/Classics are misinformed (presumably there’s no point learning anything that doesn’t have a direct application in the workplace).

My peers have gone on to Law, banking, publishing, accountancy, IT. I always tell my pupils that I am a bad example of what you can do with a Classics degree (i.e. become a poorly paid Classics teacher).

However if one of her reasons for moving is rah types then I also caution, like other posters, that she is likely to encounter these everywhere as unfortunately Classics is predominantly taught in private schools and therefore you get a lot of rah types at university. There will be loads more at UCL and elsewhere, although it’s true that in general in Oxbridge there will be more non-state educated students so even outside of her subject a lot will be privileged. I found I gravitated towards non rah people (swotty people like me, not ‘top’ public school, mix of state and private) and you need a sense of humour about the ridiculous level of privilege and idiocy of some students and indeed tutors etc.