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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Trigger warning: Germain Greer's opinion on rape...

568 replies

LokiBear · 03/06/2018 09:36

I can't actually get my head around this. How can a woman think like this? I have two daughters and comments like hers frighten me. I teach consent to 15 year olds and this goes against everything I try to teach them. I just dont get how anyone can think like this.

news.sky.com/story/germaine-greer-says-most-rape-is-bad-sex-not-violent-crime-11390855

OP posts:
peachgreen · 03/06/2018 12:36

Maybe if the punishment was less we would have more successful prosecutions,more women believed.

Why would that lead to more prosecutions?

AltogetherAndrews · 03/06/2018 12:36

I think what she is saying is not that rape isn’t violent, but that probably most women are carrying experiences which were rape, but which do not get talked about, or reported, because they were not violent in the obvious sense, they were not traumatic, don’t cause long term harm. These crimes don’t get discussed because there is a narrative that says that rape is traumatic and awful, which silences the women for whom the experience was not. These women therefore don’t report the crime, the men get to continue acting this way with other women and are never challenged, never stopped. So rape continues.

It’s happened to me twice, and GG is right, it felt more like bad sex than the violent thing that I had been taught to recognise as rape. So I did nothing about it. And no doubt the men have continued to act in that way towards the women they date and meet in bars, since no one called them on it. I’m fairly sure neither of them would have thought they were raping me, because they too have heard the narrative of rape as a necessarily violent thing. What they did was have sex with their girlfriend when she was asleep, or cross the line from persuading to overruling. And that needs to stop, as it will be traumatic for some of the women it happens to. But our current discourse and law doesn’t provide a space for dealing with this.

I’ve thought it for a long time, but been too scared to voice it, as other women will shout me down for minimising rape, or their experiences. Which is not my intent. All I want is to talk about my experiences and feelings, which I’m sure are not rare. This is why I love Germaine Greer. I may not always agree with her but she is the bravest woman. She says what she thinks, without worrying about consequences, and as a result makes us all think, and causes real change in the world.

Onlyoldontheoutside · 03/06/2018 12:39

It might do if the burden of proof were shifted.
It's to be thought about.
As for marital rape and violence,no one is saying that they are the same but so many people do not see unwanted sex as rape.

JamieVardysHavingAParty · 03/06/2018 12:41

Shouldn't we consider her proposal in context of how the current system works, i.e. not at all?

How many convictions are there for marital rape per year, currently?

What is the average sentence given to convicted rapists currently?

In some ways, what she's proposing isn't that different to what already happens: we already have a system where the baseline sentence for any crime is reduced or increased to take account of accompanying mitigating or aggravated factors. At the moment, I have the impression that the only cases that have a good chance of conviction are those with aggravating factors (like visible physical injuries to the victim) which can be used as corrobating evidence.

Surely it would be far more punitive than the current system to convict and brand rapists who hadn't visibly injured the victims, instead of simply not pursuing the case due to lack of evidence, and to charge rapists who had visibly injured the victim with rape plus ABH/GBH?

peachgreen · 03/06/2018 12:41

As for marital rape and violence,no one is saying that they are the same but so many people do not see unwanted sex as rape.

And what about the victims who do? Their rapists should be punished less severely because they were married to them?

I am absolutely baffled to see self-proclaimed feminists defending someone who thinks the punishment for non-violent rape should be less severe.

JamieVardysHavingAParty · 03/06/2018 12:45

Why would that lead to more prosecutions?

The lower the sentence, the more likely the jury are to return a verdict of guilty. This is an observed phenomenon in the courts.

If the conviction rate increases, the CPS will find it economically justifiable to pursue more cases than currently.

TheStoic · 03/06/2018 12:46

@TheStoic "Unwanted sex" is rape just as much as "violent rape" is.

Exactly. That is literally what she is saying.

AltogetherAndrews · 03/06/2018 13:01

Also more prosecutions as more women might recognise that their experiences were rape, and report them.

Aneurin · 03/06/2018 13:02

My rape has 'ruined' me. Not in a C19th sense but in an 'it ended my life sense'. No relationships, no kids, no important intimate medical treatment, self-harm and no doubt eventually suicide. I'm clearly not as strong as some on here.

Intellectually I can see her argument, but I don't agree with it as I think juries will still be unlikely to convict, especially if the narrative is that it isn't really that serious a crime. Will people really want someone branded for 'bad sex'?

Emotionally, in my gut, I think she's just perpetuating rape myths.

TheFallenMadonna · 03/06/2018 13:03

Peachgreen I can completely see that if you think reporting and conviction rates would be lower then reducing sentences seems unthinkable.
What if it did? Would you accept reduced sentencing for higher conviction rates? Do you think higher conviction rates would reduce rapes? Would that be worth a perceived lessening of the actual offence of rape?
That's the debate I'm grappling with, with myself!

CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/06/2018 13:03

Jamie I think that is what is dividing posters here.

There seems to be a needless discussion about the severity of a rape (I plead guilty to having added to that). ALL rape is unacceptable, Maybe GG is right, maybe she is wrong about the 'low end', maybe she expands in the book. But I hope we can all agree that something has to change as what has been happening is not acceptable.

But I agree, making successful prosecution the norm in rape cases would be a large step in the right direction. It can be built on from there!

peachgreen · 03/06/2018 13:14

@Aneurin I'm so sorry for your experience. I really hope you can find peace somehow. Your reaction has nothing to do with how strong or weak you are. You were raped, and rape is a violent crime which is extremely traumatic for many women, no matter the circumstances. Your feelings are valid and I'm sorry if this discussion has in any way contributed to you feeling worse.

@TheFallenMadonna Nothing would convince me to argue that rapists should get community service, no. Not even if all of them were caught and convicted. I don't believe that's a suitable punishment. Nor do I believe that a higher conviction rate would reduce the number of rapes. In fact I think making marital rape a misdemeanour that resulted in community service at worst, and could be redefined as "bad sex" would only increase the number of occurrences. I would like to see marital rape taken more seriously, not less so.

@CuriousaboutSamphire All rape is unacceptable. But by agreeing with Germaine Greer you are defending the argument that some rape is less unacceptable than other kinds.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/06/2018 13:18

But by agreeing with Germaine Greer you are defending the argument that some rape is less unacceptable than other kinds One more time, no, really, neither GG or myself are saying that. That is my opinion, you have another. We disagree. But I do know that I am not saying that that is how you interpret what I have said. That does not mean you are right about how I understand the issue and your determined repetition won't make its so, either!

I'll leave you to it though. The endless circularity is just distracting from any real discussion that could have been had.

TheStoic · 03/06/2018 13:19

But by agreeing with Germaine Greer you are defending the argument that some rape is less unacceptable than other kinds.

How can it be ‘less unacceptable’? It either is unacceptable, or it isn’t.

Right now, there are NO consequences for the ‘husband rolling over in bed to screw his unconsenting but resigned wife’ kind of rape. But GG is saying that this what the majority of rape IS, and she’s right.

peachgreen · 03/06/2018 13:33

But GG is saying that this what the majority of rape IS, and she’s right.

And she's saying it is "annoying" rather than traumatic and the punishment should be less severe than in the case of violent rape.

That's what I mean by "less unacceptable".

peachgreen · 03/06/2018 13:34

@CuriousaboutSamphire Okay, so what do you and GG mean then? Marital rape should be punished less severely than violent rape. That's clearly stated in the article. Is the implication therefore not that marital rape is a less severe crime?

TheStoic · 03/06/2018 13:37

And she's saying it is "annoying" rather than traumatic and the punishment should be less severe than in the case of violent rape.

Seeing as the punishment currently is nothing, wouldn’t you rather a system where there IS some kind of punishment?

Or do you want to stick to the ‘all rape is the same so all punishments should be the same’ system...which does not appear to be working so well for women?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/06/2018 13:41

Page 1, peachy!

peachgreen · 03/06/2018 13:51

The solution to low conviction rates for marital rape is not to lessen its severity as a crime. Hmm

TheStoic · 03/06/2018 13:53

The solution to low conviction rates for marital rape is not to lessen its severity as a crime.

What is a realistic solution, then?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/06/2018 13:53

Then what is it?

If you have a better idea, start campaigning for it. I am sure many here, including myself, would join you!

CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/06/2018 13:53

Sorry Then what is?

JamieVardysHavingAParty · 03/06/2018 14:12

DH is not a rapist. But if, if, if he were, and he just rolled over on me tonight, and I just endured it without resistance, what legal recourse would I have, peach?

These are the sentencing guidelines for rape: www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/rape-and-sexual-offences-chapter-19-sentencing

Starting Points
Single offence of rape by single offender: 5 years custody - victim 16 or over
8 years custody - victim 13 or over but under 16
10 years custody - victim under 13
Rape accompanied by aggravating factor: 8 years custody - victim 16 or over
10 years custody- victim aged 13 or over but under 16
13 years custody - victim under 13
Repeated Rape of same victim by single offender or rape involving multiple victims:

Assuming the police and CPS pursued the case, can you imagine a jury being willing to pronounce him guilty and see this normal family man sentenced to 5 years on prison?

Xmaspost · 03/06/2018 14:20

I've listed to the full interview, have some of her writings, seen her in person on panel discussion at two different times (many years ago). To me it seems that she sometimes deliberately causes controversy (knows how to make headlines!) and intends to provoke discussion.

The headline tag (and each person can contextualize the full interview for themselves) is essentially "rape is not that bad".

There have been a number of news items/publications over that past years that I also found disturbing in the category of "rape is not that bad".

Example, (from UK base) I work in Dublin one week per month ... lots of examples in the abortion debate with women talking about the wonderful child they had as a result of rape.

This Popular Science article is something I've often seen quoted too "What Science Says About Arousal During Rape" www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-05/science-arousal-during-rape

Personally I (mostly) like GG, but I fear the headline does not help the cause of us concerned about how lightly rape is treated in society.

peachgreen · 03/06/2018 14:22

The exact opposite to what Greer is suggesting. Recognising that marital rape is a crime worthy of 5 years' imprisonment. Increasing its severity as a crime, not decreasing it.

@JamieVardysHavingAParty If your husband raped you, he would not be a "normal family man". He would be a rapist. I can't speak for anyone else but if I were on that jury I would absolutely be willing to see him sentenced. And I would like to work towards a world where more people would do the same, not one where more people think marital rape isn't a big deal.

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