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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Trigger warning: Germain Greer's opinion on rape...

568 replies

LokiBear · 03/06/2018 09:36

I can't actually get my head around this. How can a woman think like this? I have two daughters and comments like hers frighten me. I teach consent to 15 year olds and this goes against everything I try to teach them. I just dont get how anyone can think like this.

news.sky.com/story/germaine-greer-says-most-rape-is-bad-sex-not-violent-crime-11390855

OP posts:
Pengggwn · 06/06/2018 02:08

Pumperthepumper

I've been trying to do that for two days. I've been accused of trolling, of criticising her for her 'word choices', of being an aggressive pedant, etc., because agreement is the only acceptable form of discussion to you.

So, actually, I'm not going to bother.

Luisa27 · 06/06/2018 06:55

Maldives that’s a really good point you made about rape being discussed in all it’s nuances, however painful

Pumperthepumper · 06/06/2018 07:25

because agreement is the only acceptable form of discussion to you.

I don’t think that’s very fair! I’ve said several times I don’t agree with her. But I’ve acknowledged what she’s actually saying and attempted to discuss that. You misunderstood, then refused to admit you’d misunderstood because not backing down was more important to you. So yes, probably best not to bother if it’s going to be more of the same.

Pengggwn · 06/06/2018 07:56

Pumperthepumper

I haven't misunderstood, and your continued insistence that I cannot read or hear her talking is confusing to me.

In addition, I raised a point in the posts just after I listened to her that was directly related to something she said, which you insist you would like to discuss, but you have ignored it in favour of insisting you want to discuss what she said. It is bizarre, and I can only infer that you intend to continue ignoring anything that does not correlate with your interpretation of her ideas.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 06/06/2018 08:19

Here you go! Jenni Murray. In a balanced review of Greer's speech she both agrees and disagrees with Greer, mainly on the points we are discussing here, and furthers the debate.

Whilst I disagree with some of her interpretations, it doesn't' diminish the fact that I agree with much of what she says, just as whilst disagreeing with some of Greers statements Murray agrees with much if what she said.

This is how you disagree without stifling debate

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5810197/Germaine-Greer-said-rapists-community-service-Jenni-Murray-says-jailed.html

Luisa27 · 06/06/2018 08:50

Oooh - love Jenni, thanks Curious
I’ll have a read after tennis

Pengggwn · 06/06/2018 09:19

This is how you disagree without stifling debate

If that is aimed at me, I am not stifling debate. I would argue that trying to dictate the terms of someone else's disagreement with an idea is more stifling to debate than someone saying they disagree with the idea.

Pumperthepumper · 06/06/2018 12:25

Thanks Curious, good find! Found this bit particularly interesting:

For some victims, there is none of the violence we generally associate with rape — no beating around the head, no strangulation, no wielding of a knife and no fear of death.

Rape is violation whether it’s perpetrated by a stranger, a husband, a friend or a colleague and whether there’s additional violence or not.

So I guess that’s the difference between spoken and written word, since they’re both saying exactly the same thing but there’s no outcry that I can find of the way JM worded it.

Also, she addresses GG’s comments but she’s a bit light on the ‘reduced tarrif’ idea, she almost glosses over it, actually:

As for a fitting punishment, Germaine suggested the sentence for the offence might be reduced to 200 hours’ community service and perhaps an ‘r’ tattoo on the rapist’s hand, arm or cheek.

This is where I deviate from her view most vociferously. I would prefer the legal system take complaints seriously from the moment they are made, investigate them thoroughly and correctly and provide an atmosphere in court that’s carefully controlled by a well-informed judiciary. Then, if the jury convicts, a prison sentence should most definitely follow.

Germaine claimed the legal system cannot cope because rape is so common and it always comes down to the difficult issue of consent, with the victims becoming little more than ‘bits of evidence’.

Frankly, I would have been quite content to be a ‘bit of evidence’ if I’d had the guts to go to the police back in 1969. Yes, I was able to move on and enjoy my life but that doesn’t preclude me from wishing I’d seen the brute punished.

  • because this is exactly what we do just now, as was GG’s point, and it’s letting too many men walk away. It would have been nice to see an acknowledgement of that, I think. Good article, I enjoyed reading her views.
JamieVardysHavingAParty · 06/06/2018 12:59

Then your conviction would probably be overturned on appeal. The standard is 'beyond reasonable doubt'. There will be no law that waters down that standard in cases of rape, and nor should there be.

No, it wouldn't be overturned on appeal, for various different reasons.

I'm afraid this is all going to be very long, but it is all, or at least mostly all, relevant.

Firstly, PorridgeQuackBacon, I would like to sincerely thank you for being honest with both yourself and us about that. A fair few people do not realise that they will feel that way until they are actually sitting in a courtroom, and such willingness to actually consider how that responsibility would feel is most laudable.

It is a recognised phenomenon that the more severe the penalty, the more hesitant juries are to convict; the most stark way to illustrate this is to consider the death penalty itself.

I'm not sure when it was first speculated that jury hesitancy might be a factor in convictions, but it was certainly acknowledged as a serious issue after the UK and Canada both abolished the death penalty for murder, and saw the conviction rate for murder increase. (Ironically, contrary to the expectations of the right-wing press, it may well out that having the death penalty would mean more murderers walking the streets, not less.)

The Economist's outline on a 2017 analysis of conviction rates in Victorian Britain

This US study set out to gather data on how strongly jury decisions may be affected by the absence or presence of the death penalty, by surveying jurors themselves, post-trial. These jurors (who had already voted guilty) were asked if they would have been more likely to vote not guilty, had the death penalty for the defendant been a possible outcome. 30% said yes. (3% said they would have been more likely to vote guilty.)

Obviously, projected differences in length of custodial sentence should not have such a strong link with guilty/not guilty verdicts as the possibility of a death sentence seems to do; but it seems foolish to me in the extreme to assume that there would not be.

I imagine there have been a fair few attempts to articulate why this happens, including in the extract already linked. (I rather like that one.)

I might put it as thus: evidence suggests that 'beyond reasonable doubt' may mean sweet Fanny Adams once the jury have retired. Our peers do not coolly analyse the probabilities; they are strongly motivated to go with the choice that won't leave them sitting bolt upright at 3 am for the next six years, thinking, "suppose, just suppose he was telling the truth and I got it wrong, and I sent an innocent man to prison..."

Quite simply, it is acknowledged that juries do this, and we could in fact have an entire thread about what 'beyond reasonable doubt' means to the average person on the electoral register vs what legal professionals think it means.

However, perhaps that would be unwise, because in all the discussion of how juries should vote, we would be missing the huge elephant in the room: why do we have a jury system at all?

There are other justifications of it, but one reason why we have this entitlement to be heard by a collection of our peers (if charged with an appropriate offence) is to deliberately allow the voice of the people an opportunity to subvert Parliament's will.

The jury are directed to consider the case on the evidence submitted and pronounce guilty/not guilty accordingly, but they are not legally obliged to do so. They are in fact legally entitled to pronounce not guilty (even if they believe 100% that the defendant did it), because they believe that the legal penalty for the crime is disproportionate, or because they think the crime should not count as a crime, or the case otherwise strikes them as unjust. This is called Jury Nullification, and you can read an excellent description and explanation of the practice here.

Lastly, in this hypothetical case that QuackPorridgeBacon sat on? A convicted defendant can not "just" appeal. They must have permission to appeal, and to obtain that, they need to submit grounds that something went wrong with the trial process, or perhaps fresh evidence that should be considered. Please note this is not an exhaustive list, not intended to be. However, speculation that the jury might have returned a different verdict had the charges been lesser/greater is not sufficient for an appeal.

Every Tom, Dick and Harry who works in the courts knows that this is a possibility, and as it is the jury's right to do so, the CPS take this into account when they are deciding whether to press cases and what charges to pursue.

JamieVardysHavingAParty · 06/06/2018 13:04

I apologise for any lack of clarity above. I have had approximately ten hours of sleep for the past two nights, and now that I read the above back, I can clearly see that it is affecting my written work.

Pumperthepumper · 06/06/2018 16:10

Jamie oh, this is so interesting! Thanks so much for posting, someone (possibly you?) had posted upthread about a court phenomenon and juries and it’s been great to read more about it.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 06/06/2018 16:41

Jamie don't apologise, that was nice and clear, but must have taken a lot of time. Thanks Smile

JamieVardysHavingAParty · 06/06/2018 16:59

Probably me. I do tend to bang on about the subject of the jury process and its virtues (people!) and its flaws (people!) whenever I have an opportunity.

If it's something you're interested in, Channel 4 staged a mock trial for a documentary last year, to investigate the jury process. Article It may still be available somewhere on the internet. I also once watched a documentary, way back when, that had film crews follow the deliberations of a "shadow jury" who sat in at a real trial. It was fascinating and horrifying in rqual measure, and I'm buggered if I know what it was called. Would love to find it on the world wide web.

JamieVardysHavingAParty · 06/06/2018 17:02

Curious, thank you, but I could have done better!

Mind you, "better" would probably have become "longer" so probably best I stopped when I did...

Luisa27 · 06/06/2018 18:47

Jamie I am in awe of your long post 😮...very interesting, I’ve learned a lot from it. The whole delicate balance and utter fragility of the jury fascinates me
Oh and I saw the channel 4 mock trial - well worth watching.

Luisa27 · 06/06/2018 18:51

I enjoyed the Jenni article too Curious - actually read it twice and sent it over to my sisters in Italy.

QuackPorridgeBacon · 06/06/2018 19:50

JamieVardysHavingAParty Thank you, what you wrote was very clear and I’m glad it’s helped with some of my thinking. Using the death penalty as an example is exactly where my line of thinking was regardlimg a lower sentence.

QuackPorridgeBacon · 06/06/2018 19:51

Regarding*

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